Are maps becoming more balanced?

(Kendle) #1

Following on from recent discussions regarding the balance, or otherwise, of the 6 standard ET maps, I’ve been noticing a change in the balance of these maps lately. I’d imagine this is largely due to familiarity with the maps, and the fact that more and more people now know what to do, and what not to do.

For example:-

Radar

Supposedly biased towards offense (Allies), but I’m seeing Axis hold this one more often now, especially if they set up effective defensive crossfires around the main door and on the tin-roof of the building next to the East Radar. But then Allies seem to be attacking the side door more, and also blowing the main door without taking the bunker first (thereby removing the flag and getting the bunker by default). Originally this map was a foregone conclusion for Allies, but it now seems to lead to more tight, competitive games.

Railgun

At first no-one knew what to do with the Tugs, and the 1st Tug would go back and forth past Allies spawn over and over and it was anyone’s guess who would win. But now it seems to only require a little organisation from Axis and they can get the Ammo from the Depot and fire the Gun. However, if Allies can take an early hold of the Depot, and maintain it, they can make Axis work real hard for this one, and, once they’ve got the upper hand, can often pin the Axis back in their spawn hut. Again, lots of competitive games on this map, although if Axis are going to win it, they’ll normally win it quick.

FuelDump

During Test, when this was the only map, it seemed a fairly even split between Allies and Axis winning this. But now I never see Allied Covert-Ops getting a uniform and getting into the Depot. An Axis Engy or 2 will always build the defences right from the start, and Allies never seem to win this map anymore. Yesterday I did see Allies win it, once, and it reminded me that it’s been months since the last time I saw Allies win. This map seems to go 1 of 2 ways. Either Axis are stronger and will spawn-camp Allies without allowing them to even get the Tank over the Bridge, or Allies are stronger and will get the Tank to the Depot in 5 minutes flat, but then fail to breach the Depot defences for the remaining 25 minutes.

Oasis

At first, a sneaky Allied Engy would almost always win this. But now Axis are setting up more effective defences, making sure the approaches to the Guns are mined to hell and paying more attention to Allies slipping through. A pretty even map, and usually goes the distance, with some intense battles over the Old City Flag to begin with, which changes hands maybe dozens of times before Allies are in a position to plant the Wall.

Battery

Immediately written off as impossible for Allies to win, and certainly there are still games in which Axis can hold the beach-head seemingly indefinately. Most poeple know now not to go onto the Beach or out the Back Door, however, I’m sure I’m now seeing Allies win this more often than Axis! Get that ramp built and a single Engy up and over, and Axis seem too slow to react. The key being NOT to take the flag, but to go straight for the Gun Controls.

GoldRush

So much to do in this one, I love it! Much to my joy I’m not seeing so many XP-whores rushing off to build Truck Barriers right from the off as I used to. Allies can get the Tank straight away if they rush it, though often it takes a few attempts. Having to get past 2 Tank Barriers, 2 Truck Barriers, and steal 2 lots of Gold, and repair a Truck in-between, makes this a hard map for Allies, but they seem to be getting the job done more easily now, though the Bank is proving the most difficult task (i.e. actually stealing the Gold).

Anyone else get the feeling the game has “evolved” now? Do games seem to be getting closer, with both teams maybe getting the upper hand more often on maps they’re not supposed to win (Allies - Battery, Axis - Radar)? Are the maps in general (apart from FuelDump maybe) becoming more balanced as time goes by?

Thoughts?

(BondyBoy007) #2

Yes I’ve noticed over the past weekend that games are closer than they were before

For instance on Railgun I was axis and we had got the ammo loaded on the first train but allies had captured and were holding the depot yard very well. After about ten mins trying to take the train/depot yard we finally got it - but I’ve never seen the yard defended as well as it was (outside of a clan match)

Same sort of thing for goldrush, very close game and 15 mins of trying to steal the gold from the vault. When it finally was stolen the truck was held with it’s gold by the axis for 4 mins before we got it moving; once I’ve even seen (and participated in) the holding of the truck just past the 1st truck barrier for 2 mins - tense 2 mins that was

Maybe I was just lucky and there were good players on at the time. . .

(Sauron|EFG) #3

SD server: Oasis, Radar and Goldrush feels balanced, although it can be really hard to break through and get the gold on Goldrush. Railgun is usually won by Axis, unless Allies are able to push them back to their spawn. Fueldump is mostly won by Allies, and Battery is just boring.
Offense has become more focused and agressive compared to a while back. I wouldn’t call it more balanced, but maybe less random…

Any other server :disgust: : People still visit the beach (not as common as it used to be though) and go out the back door on Battery, and I saw a sneaky win on Fueldump just yesterday. Defense usually wins because the offense isn’t pushing, although a few good players on one team can tip the balance completely.

(StormShadow) #4

Oasis and radar are the only relatively balanced maps…

(ETplayer) #5

hmm as more players become familiar with the maps, it becomes easier for the axis to hold the line…, the only thing the axis have 2 do is kill the allies and keep them from their objectives while the allies have 2 win by finishing the objectives…

I feel that overtime it has become harder 2 win in an allied team then it is to win on an axis team. imo. :weird:

(rgoer) #6

Well, I had to answer “same as always,” but that’s only because your poll is flawed. The maps are the absolute same–the majority of players, however, seem to be getting a firmer hold on the “how not to suck” aspects of ET strategy. We’re at that point where the bandwagon guys are sodding off to whatever the new flavor of the week is, and most of the people that remain in the ET community are here because we like this game a lot and know how to play it.

(funkPig) #7

Right, i guess you can say that the games on the maps have become more balanced…but you get the point from the poll :stuck_out_tongue:

in any case, let me give some of my opinions on some of the maps mentioned.

Fuel Dump
As axis, i usually play as a MG in the tunnel, this prevents the sneak win almost every time. Sometimes the allies come hard through there and I am the only one that is defending the tunnel. 1 mg and one fo is all that is needed there I really don’t understand why more people dont defend this area since it is vital to the allies “sneak win”
As allie, I go straight to the tunnel. I know that 90% of the time there isn’t anyone in there. It usually works, run up to the foot bridge, down the ice, pickup a uni, by this time the gate has just been blown, and up through the tunnel…

Battery
The battery can be tough. I have seen less people going out on the beach. Every once and a while you see some idiot with a flame jump to the ally spawn…hehe
But as far as the back door, I have actually seen more people going out and defending the cp. I have found that a good defence back there can help the axis. (without rehashing the “discussion” on why/why not the back door is good) – A well defended cp splits the ally attack and you will always get allies running too the back in search of that uni that they cant get because the back is too well defended. it has made for some interesting games…note, don’t try this if you are alone or your team sux…

Train
I see regulars saying “only go for the train” I think this is flawed, a small portion of your team needs to get and hold the depot yard. If you don’t, you get pinched and will wind up sitting by the fire for the rest of the game in the spawn hut.

(rgoer) #8

Battery can be 100% impossible for allies to win, provided you have a disciplined and patient axis defense. Two or three coverts need to stay back behind the ridge up on the top of the rocks (so they can’t get picked off from the beach)–and yeah, this cuts off sniping XP, so no whores need apply–and the rest of the axis needs to just make sure they do nothing that could give up pants. Then, as long as the coverts have their heads on square and know how to get some cover if/when an allied airstrike/artillery is called in, all they have to do is wait for the “cutting two-by-fours and hammering” sound that engies make as they build the ramp and satchel away. As soon as the ramp is blown, retreat back behind that ridge again.

This “foolproof” strategy, however, can all go down the drain if the coverts get greedy for some sniping xp and expose themselves to enemy fire. If the coverts aren’t alive to satchel the ramp, the ramp doesn’t get satcheled.

(BondyBoy007) #9

I’ll bear that one in mind thanks

(Rippin Kitten) #10

Its because that first push by the axis is the best opportunity you’ll have all game to get the tug past the switch. Some allies will go to the flag, some will go to the CP, others to the gun controls. So you’re not only facing just half the team, they’re pretty scattered out and you’ll easily outnumber them during any firefight. Even if the allies hold the depot flag, the thirty second spawn timer is long enough to get the tug to the depot before their spawn auto-switches from the original.

Once the axis start breaking off and doing their own thing, you lose your numbers advantage and it becomes that much harder to overcome the allies at the switch. The flag, the CP, and the gun controls are all secondary to the tug. Get that puppy taken care of and then you can worry about the other stuff.

RK

(funkPig) #11

BUT, the only time that the axis get stuck in their spawn (that I have seen) is when the allies have the depot yard. It’s hard to concentrate on the train when the allies are not only guarding the switch, but also pestering your flank while you are trying to get to the train…

I think you are right though, in the beginning, when you have a chance to “suprise” the allies, do it. but after that the axis start spawning sporatically and “just concentrate” on the train won’t work because the axis will be spawning sporatically.

IMHO, after that first push, get the depot, pinch the switch by hitting it from 3 points. From the train, the door to the tunnel, and from the train yard. Otherwise, you are a big mass of panzer/mg bait

Oh, btw, I usually play on large servers 36 ppl 18 v 18.

–f

(Pamper) #12

?? Building the defenses early is harmful to the Axis. It’s a form of XP whoring: 4 separate things to build = many points! The only way it helps is if it gives an incentive for an engy player to hang around the fueltank and defend it.

Suppose an Ally covert + eng team manages to sneak inside the fueldump. If fences are built, it doesn’t really bother them, because they already have a uniform, and can just open the door to the roof.

But then once the TNT is planted, the defenses actually HELP THE ALLIES a little. When good Axis players hear the plant warning, they will /kill and respawn as engies in the fueldump. Depending on spawn-cycle times, they might or might not have time to reach the TNT. But if the fence is up, it blocks their path- they have to go over the roof too, which adds like 10 seconds to the travel time.

To maximize chance of victory, Axis should only build the near fence AFTER the fueldump entrance is blown. (They can build the far fence anytime, it doesn’t help or hurt)

(Pamper) #13

So instead of being sniped, they can be mortared? OK.

Allies can mortar and support to clear the ridge very well, especially since they have the CP for faster charging. Of course, this requires a moderately good level of planning from the team, so they know when to stop firing to let engies run through. But it can happen. (Or, of course, a good mortarer can often blast uniforms off the ridge and down to the beach)

I believe the even more foolproof way for Axis to win is to just forget about protecting the flag at all, and head inside at once. The inside of the battery is invulnerable, as long as the defenders are content to hold their position, and not run outside to capture a bunker. Apparently nobody is ever willing to play like this, because it’s totally boring to guard one hallway for 20 minutes straight. Axis tend to lose battery because taking some risk is more fun than winning.

(SylverDragon) #14

?? Building the defenses early is harmful to the Axis. It’s a form of XP whoring: 4 separate things to build = many points! The only way it helps is if it gives an incentive for an engy player to hang around the fueltank and defend it.

Suppose an Ally covert + eng team manages to sneak inside the fueldump. If fences are built, it doesn’t really bother them, because they already have a uniform, and can just open the door to the roof.

But then once the TNT is planted, the defenses actually HELP THE ALLIES a little. When good Axis players hear the plant warning, they will /kill and respawn as engies in the fueldump. Depending on spawn-cycle times, they might or might not have time to reach the TNT. But if the fence is up, it blocks their path- they have to go over the roof too, which adds like 10 seconds to the travel time.

To maximize chance of victory, Axis should only build the near fence AFTER the fueldump entrance is blown. (They can build the far fence anytime, it doesn’t help or hurt)[/quote]

Good point, though I find that when I’m playing Axis engy, and assuming we have at least 1 clueful Axis engy near the bridge, I like to go back and build the defenses and hang around in the depot waiting for the inevitable CovOp/Engy pair to come back to the depot. Just hang out above the door, hiding a bit, and wait for the sound of it opening, prime a gernade and drop it on the covert’s head as he is checking for mines (which, of course, are right in front of him). I’m quite sure that I have managed to be a large part of a number of Axis wins because of this. All you have to do is kill the engy and it stops the attack cold. Even if the covert kills you and gets your uni after that, who cares, I’ll re-spawn and get to the door long before that engy gets back.

(rgoer) #15

You’ve got some dumbass coverts if they all get KOed by mortar strikes. As soon as that first shell hits, run the fuck inside! Keep moving. There are plenty of ways not to die all the while staying withing range of the ramp.

That said, you’re right: axis absolutely can not lose if they are content to defend the GC from within. But you are again correct in your follow-up: that makes for one boring-ass game.

(kurosawa Ai) #16

Yes! Fuel Dump is the best map out of the six for Axis MG42 slaughter! Like you said, setting up in the drain tunnel practically forces the allies to move the tank all the way to the depot. If Allies start to get wise and shoot panzers in, there are plenty of nice spots to fall back to in the main tunnel system. If they still manage to get a covop/engy team through, you can race (don’t forget to switch to pistol!) to the Sniper Hill exit and mow them down at the teamdoor long range – deeply satisfying.

(kurosawa Ai) #17

The mortar just needs to look at his G-map to know when to stop firing.

(Pamper) #18

Hey guess what? I thought I’d check out how you’re able to live in a magic world where Allies never win fueldump (different from Sauron’s experience on SD for instance). So I went onto 195.149.21.152:27961 (the Campaign map in your sig) and spectated just one game of fueldump.

The Allies won with 11 minutes left, even though they were outnumbered 10 to 9 (since I was using up a slot). I have a demo if you like. So from my exhaustive, scientific survey, the map is totally unbalanced, because Allies win 100% of the time!

I wonder if there’s some force that causes Allies to lose whenever you’re playing. Like maybe you prefer to be Axis, and you just dominate the server…

In my opinion, fueldump is pretty balanced 9v9. Higher numbers of players favor defense, so it becomes unfair with larger numbers. Maps like radar and railgun are more biased towards offense, but increasing up towards 20v20 shift them to fairness. (Even radar is an impenetrable defense blowout at 32v32)

An additional factor to remember when considering balance is heavy weapons restrictions. Support fire and heavy weapons are more useful to defense, so restricting them favors offense. Fueldump can be a total lockdown at 16v16 when the Axis have two MG42s aiming at each tunnel exit! (Happened to me once, and I couldn’t find a way to break it)

(Kendle) #19

Er yes, I kinda thought that went without saying. Of course the maps are physically the same, I meant peoples perception of them.

?? Building the defenses early is harmful to the Axis. It’s a form of XP whoring: 4 separate things to build = many points! The only way it helps is if it gives an incentive for an engy player to hang around the fueltank and defend it.
[/quote]
I usually find that is the case. I’ve not seen a sneak win by Allies since I can’t remember when, but I always see Axis build the defences first, although you’re right in that they could hinder Axis defusing if Allies do manage to get in. I’m not proposing this as a valid tactic, just reporting what I see.

I’ve yet to see this theory tested unfortunately, but I think a good old-fashioned Medic rush would probably take care of it. Ever played Village in RTCW and seen how Allies can break through a heavily defended Tavern with only one entrance?

Hey guess what? I thought I’d check out how you’re able to live in a magic world where Allies never win fueldump (different from Sauron’s experience on SD for instance). So I went onto 195.149.21.152:27961 (the Campaign map in your sig) and spectated just one game of fueldump.

The Allies won with 11 minutes left, even though they were outnumbered 10 to 9 (since I was using up a slot). I have a demo if you like. So from my exhaustive, scientific survey, the map is totally unbalanced, because Allies win 100% of the time!

I wonder if there’s some force that causes Allies to lose whenever you’re playing. Like maybe you prefer to be Axis, and you just dominate the server…
[/quote]
Pamper, give it a rest, I’m only reporting what I see, and I’ve only seen Allies win FuelDump ONCE in the last 2 or 3 months, simple as. I only play on 20 player or less servers, and only those running Stopwatch or 3-map max Campaigns. I’m sure the balance of maps is effected by numbers, but I started this thread because I’m seeing the balance being effected on the same servers I’ve always played on, with the same numbers.

As for myself, I usually play Allies as I like to be on the attacking side, although I’ll join whichever team has the fewest players (not much choice really as both the servers in my sig have balanced teams enabled). On FuelDump and Battery I’ll usually play Allied Engy if I can, as these maps represent the toughest challenge. When I do play as Axis it’s usually as Med as that was my primary role when I was active in competitive RTCW.

(Pamper) #20

That game didn’t include mobile MG42s. If that tavern had 2 or 3 heavy guns focused on the door (without the spinup time or recharge delay of the Venom), then I don’t think the med rush would get very far. (Even covert smoke won’t help. Since MG42 gets 300 bullets from a pack, they can just fire in bursts without ever seeing a target)

There’s basically 2 ways you might defend battery from inside: Hold the front corridor with a mix of MG42, fieldop, med, eng (the elegant way). Or just fall back to the gun control room with half eng, half med, and 1 fieldop for ammo (the messy way). The whole room will be a mess of SMG fire and constant death- but your reinforcements will arrive quicker than they’res. An eng might plant occasionally, but he’ll die, and you’ll always have eng ready to defuse. This occasionially happens in pub games- the Allies push into guncontrol, but get caught, and the Axis keep killing them there, rather than trying to defend the entrances.