Is there a plan to balance out spawn camping? Especially on the map where you have to flood to win at the end. I had a game where the defenders got behind the spawn and just spawn trapped my entire team. Even if we made it out of spawn there were people on the balconies that would pick anyone who got through off.
Anti-Spawn Camp
irishrOy
(irishrOy)
#2
I think freshly-spawned have smth. like a shield for X seconds?
But I get your idea. However, I think, you never really “ban” spawn-camping.
The best solution to smth. like this would be to give a spawn multiple exits, so not every exit can be camped by an enemy (Like on the map where you have to repair the EV-tank-car and detonate the Tower)
Mustang
(Mustang)
#3
Spawn camping doesn’t really happen unless the teams are unbalanced, in which case anti-spawn camping isn’t really going to help anyway.
irishrOy
(irishrOy)
#5
Not really, since any player, who is A)a bit lucky and B) chooses the right time can go behind the enemy and spawn-camp them.
mercifulBologna
(mercifulBologna)
#6
This is also true for the “Chapel” map on the second attackers spawn location.
The defenders should have limited movement like in other video games, where their vision is blurry and they have several seconds to leave the restricted area.
bubblesKeyboard
(bubblesKeyboard)
#7
[quote=“mercifulBologna;4715”]This is also true for the “Chapel” map on the second attackers spawn location.
The defenders should have limited movement like in other video games, where their vision is blurry and they have several seconds to leave the restricted area.[/quote]
Like Battlefield and Planetside
However the difference is they have massive amounts of players on maps, so when everyone spawns they can push out. Here we only have 5-8 players, so it wouldnt matter. The other team would just hide behind cover before the spawn and shoot through it when they see someone, or worse, spam air strikes through the barrier. I think multiple exits will work well, but so far spawn trapping isnt really a problem. There are already many exits or at least vantage points you can use to get rid of spawn campers on the other team. However people dont know this because they all go through the main exit rather than taking the longer route to catch the flank of the enemy.
The bottom line is, if you’re being spawn camped hard, the other team is much better than you. So strap in and prepare for 10 mins of buttsex.
Szakalot
(Szakalot)
#9
the most obvious spawncamp position is Chapel def last obj, due to only one exit from spawn.
other areas include (also notable chokepoints):
- terminal last obj, attackers can get locked down easily in the area immediate to their spawn, the one that opens up to the plaza.
- undeground first obj : attackers can get locked down in the tunnels right before the wide area in front of the obj. Elevator doesnt solve the problem, as its a meatgrinder to get through
- undeground last obj, if the generator is lost there is only one viable way to get out of the spawn, and a very narrow one at that
Other notable chokes:
- chapel, during EV escort, the opening of the street with 3 mgs is one huge choke, and can be very hard to push through for attackers, if defense holds the middle mg, with crossfire from chapel
- bridge barrier generator room is very hard to breach, usually requires people going around the back that is hard to coordinate on a pub - though at the moment this will hopefully be solved with 2ndary objectives being destroyable by conventional means.
edit: i have seen very little spawncamping on this test, most likely due to people not knowing which spots are the best, but also because matchmaking was generally making a far better job of even teams than whatever system was in place before.
adeto1
(adeto)
#10
Most spawncamping is just one team being better than the other and getting the opportunity to spawncamp or a single player sneaking past enemy and putting himself in position to get a good spawn kill(s) to help his team, which you could also see as just the ‘spawnkilled’-team just making a mistake by letting someone sneak through unseen.
In public play it’s considered a dick move, but the only 100% cure against it unless you have really active admins to time people out who actively spawnkill. However in competitive play(matchmaking) it is generally a good thing for your team if you manage to sneak past the enemy team and get a few spawnkills. It’s just part of the game in a game with respawn cycles. soz for lack of more civil words but learn to deal with it 
triteCherry
(triteCherry)
#11
If the opposite team has one tight corridor to get out of their spawn it makes it a lot easier to spawn camp them then another team which has 3 or 4 different ways to get out (safely). It doesn’t really help with health easily available, quick revives, ammo packs and area denial abilities making it so much easier to blockade another team and doesn’t help the attacking team in game play revolving around objectives when the map makes the defending teams job that much easier.
I’ve seen the beginning spawn of Terminal get camped quite a few times due to the lack of cover from sniper fire and basically most of the ways out are in the same open area. If the tunnel on the right side wasn’t filled with gas from the start it would make it easier to push out as the other team would need to divide it’s forces to defend.
In Chapel I’ve seen Aura or Proxy hide in the garage a number of times while the other team basically covers them in three or more places allowing them easy access to anyone repairing the EV and being defended by the other team members, the defending team seems to have much more cover then the attacking team at the start of the objective.
Szakalot
(Szakalot)
#13
[quote=“triteCherry;5486”]
I’ve seen the beginning spawn of Terminal get camped quite a few times due to the lack of cover from sniper fire and basically most of the ways out are in the same open area. If the tunnel on the right side wasn’t filled with gas from the start it would make it easier to push out as the other team would need to divide it’s forces to defend.[/quote]
The tunnel isn’t filled with gas at map start! Sometimes there is a graphical glitch that make it look like it is though.
In Chapel I’ve seen Aura or Proxy hide in the garage a number of times while the other team basically covers them in three or more places allowing them easy access to anyone repairing the EV and being defended by the other team members, the defending team seems to have much more cover then the attacking team at the start of the objective.
that can be a dangerous setup indeed, but going hard-right lets you take over the bridge, once you hold the upper areas defense can quickly crumble, as its hard to retake it from the L-shaped stairs.
Glot
(Glot)
#14
Spawnrape from most annoying to less:
1. Terminal 1st stage after tunnel is gone.
What is bad:
-several chokepoints at spawn exits (both of them are chokes)
-several lines of defense for defenders (can go agressive near the spawn exits, or more safe at the pipes/MG nest with some cover at Office-big curved-stairs and MG-nest backdoor).
-a lot of height advantage. MG nest, pipes
solution:
-get rid of chokes at Spawn exits (more space, cover)
-give Height to attacker to counter Pipes and MG nest
-give side route to Pipes (open or in a corridor) - for attackers only
2. Trainyard 1st stage
What is bad:
-very linear layout for attackers (only forward) and very wide line for defence
-very Open layout (defenders can see everyone in all possible routes)
-Height advantage for defenders
solution:
-get rid of insane crossfire from defenders by re-establishing buildings and breaking/curving the Line of defence.
i.e. it is too easy to defend, when you can see enemies and friends - everything is in sight, you can react and you can move from flank to flank.
i suggest curving the railways so that the Gate-flank goes deeper to the defenders spawn. and the buildeng also goes in that direction.
3. Chapel 1st stage.
What is bad:
-very tiny close-quarters exits from spawn.
-Not enough defensive strong points (basically only one usually taken by a sniper.)
solutions:
-give more space in spawn exits
-give at least one more advantageous spot for attackers (i suggest something to counter the balcony guys - because the bridge guys are not so scary)
4. Chapel last stage (for def-spawn)
What is bad:
-basically defs have only 1 big exit
-open area (airstikes)
solutions:
-more exits, and separate existing exits a little bit more. both exits shouldnt be visible from almost ANY POINT of the whole battle area like we have now =)
-some cover from airstrikes.
Szakalot
(Szakalot)
#15
Good post Glottis, but I think the main issue here is that the maps really can’t handle 7v7s and 8v8s you see on pubs, even 6v6s stretch it to the limit. In the 5v5 format I think most of the chokes are not as easy to hold; and the frontline is more likely to be erratic anyways due to a lucky double/triple kill and some long spawns.
So I’m not entirely sure how much focus should be put on trying to solve these, vs. making new maps etc.
Glot
(Glot)
#16
[quote=“Szakalot;11786”]Good post Glottis, but I think the main issue here is that the maps really can’t handle 7v7s and 8v8s you see on pubs, even 6v6s stretch it to the limit. In the 5v5 format I think most of the chokes are not as easy to hold; and the frontline is more likely to be erratic anyways due to a lucky double/triple kill and some long spawns.
So I’m not entirely sure how much focus should be put on trying to solve these, vs. making new maps etc.[/quote]
i realy hope for very long life of the maps.and from quake3 expierince i remember for a map to walk a path from being nice/good to a masterpiece for a decade there should be a bunch of versions.
one can say that we did have some versions for all maps in DB. but they realy felt way too spontaneous, impulsive, “what if…???”-ish. and it is a very wrong way if your goal is a great map. it seems like a trial and error method in its best. but maps demand another approach - there should be much more preliminary discussions and suggestions.
like we tried to do on the SD beta-forums (lots of threads from lots of testers - like Raste, Inferno, Pixel and many others including yours truly)
ofcourse with different amount of ppl maps play differently. but there are two things:
- i never thought that going from 5v5 to 7v7 or 8v8 can change a map feel so drastically. and i feel it is wrong.
- even with 5v5 maps are not good enough =)
Szakalot
(Szakalot)
#17
I think it has to do with the Echo-based design. Spawn distances and such are so constructed that DB fights become a constant frontline. Even a 3v3 can feel like a consistent firefight; with 1 person dead; 1 person fighting; 1 person about to fight.
If you extend that to 8v8 you get situations where a particular choke is constantly being fought over. If the attackers break it, they immediately hit the new wave of reinforcements, and get pushed back to the choke. Rinse&repeat.
Its good for the chaos-action feel of the game, but can get repetitive and does not permit deeper strategies that involve setting up defenses (W:ET mines, QW spawnhosts, etc.)
einstyle
(einstyle)
#19
[quote=“Nima92;12488”]What if:
Dmg Boost on spawn
OR
Slowed Enemy Movement Near Spawn[/quote]
that would feel super weird
I’d much rather have map advantage at spawns
rapidEgg
(rapidEgg)
#20
What could help for Tunnel is to replace the elevator to the left of attacking spawn with a ramp. I hardly ever see anyone use it and idk if most players even notice that it’s there.
There’s also a ton of space behind the attackers spawn for some reason. Maybe pushing the spawn back to the outside area could help since the attackers would then have a huge height advantage over anyone trying to spawn camp them.
For Trainyard, One of the most important areas I’ve seen for both attackers and defenders at the first objective is the building to the left of attacker spawn. There’s almost always some kind of fighting going on in there and it’s usually defender sided as they have 2 easy to use entrances and a well placed window while attackers have 1 easy entrance and 1 trick jump. The trick jump is rather annoying and I’ve seen many players attempt it, fail at it, then have to run around to go through the easier path. Making the trick jump either easier to do or removing it in favor of a simpler path could help.
If worst comes to worst, DB could always try to use Spawn Rooms instead of it’s current open spawn design. Rooms that only one team can enter with invisible brushes on the door to block bullets from going through. There’s also the ole Spawn Room turrets approach.