Anti-Spawn Camp

(Szakalot) #21

the trainyard trickjump would be much more consistent if they removed the brick corner column sticking out. The only times I ever fail it is when game considers me jumping of the column, rather than the side wall.

(Glot) #22

[quote=“Szakalot;11939”]I think it has to do with the Echo-based design. Spawn distances and such are so constructed that DB fights become a constant frontline. Even a 3v3 can feel like a consistent firefight; with 1 person dead; 1 person fighting; 1 person about to fight.

If you extend that to 8v8 you get situations where a particular choke is constantly being fought over. If the attackers break it, they immediately hit the new wave of reinforcements, and get pushed back to the choke. Rinse&repeat.

Its good for the chaos-action feel of the game, but can get repetitive and does not permit deeper strategies that involve setting up defenses (W:ET mines, QW spawnhosts, etc.)[/quote]

i dislike this exact feeling. i think of myself as a ‘chaos expert’ of some sort. but sometimes the amount of fights and mini encounters and crossfire and ability spam is so huge, that i get frustrated. this ofcourse comes from my being-at-the-edge playing style. but it is much more difficult than in ETQW (or mb im getting old?).

dancing around enemy-concentration and making quickest desisions that are best for exact moment and will be bad next moment is what i am searching for in gaming.

and i want to find it more often in DB than i do now. right now i think that intencity is TOO high even for good players. only top players around seem to be comfortable in the most intense situations in DB.

so i would like to see the intencity go a little bit down. spawn times/travel times adjustment is the easiest way to do this. but in combination with map-rebuilding this can be much more helpful.
so in the end i would like to see more wave-like action.
strategic, thoughtful pushes instead of constant grind.

(Szakalot) #23

Problem is, the way maps are designed - they rely on this constant in-fighting.

Increasing spawntimes/distances will make it all about spawn timing. Attack 5 seconds before their spawn - win map.

Take Chapel last obj for example. Attackers have to break two chokepoints, at mid-level (the small staircase building; the tunnel areas), then kick the defenders from out of the rock. Once Attack establishes flank on defender’s spawn its usually game over for the defense. This map layout breaks down when you increase spawn times, cause thats what it will ONLY be about.

Maps just need to be spread out more. Forward spawns EVERYWHERE.

(Vaasref) #24

What about increasing the spawncamping team’s wave delay ?

With a spawn invincibility to let the camped team enough time to push and do good kill (not incap) on the spawncamping team.

Then the spawncamper would have a big delay, reversing the trend.

So spawncamping would be a move, but a risky one.

I’m not against spawncamp as a tactic, but I’m as a strategy.

(lapislazuliPark) #25

[quote=“Szakalot;13552”]be about.

Maps just need to be spread out more. Forward spawns EVERYWHERE.[/quote]

Gotta say i love the forward spawn system on terminal. It gives two main objectives for attackers and can help to break chokes by going for this and rolling forward slightly first.

(smittenBureau) #26

hat about an auto turret near the spawn, Indestructable, dealing massive amounts of damage quick to keep players off the spawn area. I mean, In game it would be justafiable, due to the mercs arriving in a Troop transporter.

(goodField) #27

I can’t agree with the Anti-Spawn-Raging measures, because in most cases its a single person like the Trickjump in the Construction area on Chapel. In that case, its really just someone getting off an advantageous flank route. If its not, and you are literally getting gunned down the second your shield drops by 4-5 enemies, then I hate to say it but your team comp and playstyle is to blame.

The only example I’ve ever had with this, is when literally half of the opposing team was using Vasilli exclusively. They got so utterly crushed I asked my team to just let them have the first objective so we could see if they’d break out of the Trainyard’s first objective.

(TheDevouringOne) #28

I had pretty much the same idea. It would allow the people to spawn in a safe place, and then push out. Even if the enemy team is camping near the spawn, they would still have a better chance to escape, as they wouldn’t be getting killed before they can even turn around to fight.

(KangaJoo) #29

It’s only bad on the last part of chapel for the defending team and on the first objective of terminal for the attacking team. On chapel, the defenders only have one place to exit their spawn from and that exit is completely out in the open. On terminal there are multiple exists but 1 of them is pretty easy to cut off by gassing it at the start of the round and the other exits all lead to sublanes within the same main lane meaning they can all be watched from one or two positions without forcing the defenders to rotate.

(Borganism) #30

The worst I tend to see is the first spawn on chapel. If teams are unbalanced (which itself is a big problem) or defenders get a sweep of kills you often see multiple defenders swarm into the building attackers spawn in. they then sit there and plant mines or turrets, or stand behind and headshot.
This gives no chance to break free of the spawn camp and it just gets worse as more defenders get bored and join in, or attackers get bored and leave. Even if more players join you cant break the cycle of spawning and dying immediately.
Im aware of the small invunerability but it tends to be useless in these situations.
Terminal is a close second. If defenders manage to blow the gas passage it doesnt take long for them to work their way down to spawn camping.
btw, my definition of spawn camping isnt locking off the choke points, its sitting in the enemy spawn in an advantageous position and setting up for a slaughter.

edit: adding tag to make sure this post is seen @MissMurder

(responsibleChamber) #31

I do not see why a two second spawn immunity would break the game. It would strictly prevent the enemy team from getting into your spawn area and shooting you in the back the moment you spawn. Or better yet, design the maps so that spawn exits only work one way. Meaning you can only exit spawn, you cannot reenter them. It is frustrating to have to defend your life the absolute millisecond you respawn into the game. I do agree that if you are pushed back into your spawn that you are getting outplayed and you should probably reconsider some very important life decisions, or merc selections, but you should not be punished just for spawning.

P.S. Also a great way to fix being spawn camped is switch to a medic with a raise. Keep picking your team up and continue to throw bullets at your enemy.

P.P.S. I think we need some mid-tier servers. Right now I have seen Max Level 5, Min Level 10, and Max Level 15 servers. Can we get some Max Level 10 servers? I am currently level 6 and I see myself constantly keeping pawned by Level 13+. It would be nice to play against people near my skill level until some substantial changes to the matchmaking get made.

(Szakalot) #32

I don’t think an automatic turret is a good solution; cause spawns can easily change over the course of the game - is the turret going to teleport along with the spawn?

I’d simply prefer the present invulnerability to NOT disappear when firing, unlike the revive-invulnerability that (used to) disappear as soon as you did something

(heartyTurtle) #33

I personally think an invisible wall should block them from getting into the spawn, would fix all of these things.

(Gwarh) #34

[quote=“favoriteKnife;32870”]
btw, my definition of spawn camping isnt locking off the choke points, its sitting in the enemy spawn in an advantageous position and setting up for a slaughter.[/quote]

Egg Fuggin Zacktly.

(Gwarh) #35

I love the game and really appreciate the hard work the Dev team is putting into the game, but, BUT… After decades now of FPS game map design, how can they (the Game Dev’s) design maps that allow such easy access to enemy spawns. And not only easy access but easy of camping with nothing in place to discourage or prevent camping boggles me.

That to me is FPS Map design 101 stuff. I’m being harsh I know but cam’on iIt’s really basic map design. How did these thoughts not occur to the Game Dev’s, and if it did they why was nothing done? Was it intentional? Are they so hard core they want to reward the enemy team for pushing the other side back to their spawn (I doubt that of course, but that is the end result non the less. One team is mercilessly punished and the other is sadistically rewarded)

Tough Love Warchest but I feel it needs to be said. ESPECIALLY in light of the software you have to analyze map flow and player movement (which for the life of me I can’t find the youtube video of at the moment). I expect twice as much from your maps because of that sort of analysis software.

(Gi.Am) #36

I’d argue it is fully intentional.

  1. Other SD titels had spawn protection.
  2. Every single Spawn can be entered no matter the map no matter the side.
  3. The Chapel change (I know I brought that up before)

When people complaint about the first attackers spawn they changed it. What did they do? they eliminated all sightlines the defenders had into the spawn from the defending positions around the EV. They made a trickjump impossible that allowed entering the enemy spawn without much visible exposure and before the enemy was actually out. But They did another thing… They added a staircase that gives the defenders easy access to the spawn.

My conclusion is that yes the ability to enter a spawn is by design.

However compared to other games spawncamping is a rare happening and thats because of the design of the game/maps. The maps are pretty linear and that means getting into the spawn un-noticed is not possible (atleast for a full team). To spawncamp, a team has to defeat atleast one complete spawnwave (two on larger maps). To Spawncamp a defending team has to abondon the objective (putting them in a dangerous position if an enemy can get trough).

The Chapel fix shows that if those statements are not true, they will change the map.

The only times a team gets locked into a spawn is when the teams are uneven (either by number or skill or both). Otherwise the attackers will always be in a position to bring the fight outside their spawn.

But why allow spawn camping at all. I can only speculate but since I have played games that lock the spawnarea off. I know how frustrating it can be, if a team simply stays in their spawn and refuses to come out because they are too afraid.

In DB attackers have no safehaven, no security net, no defensive position where they can hide and maybe boost their K/D by sniping people that try to peek in. And that means the only way to have a secure spawn is, to fight to be aggressive and to bring the fight to the defenders and the objective.

Imo that is a good motivational thing (could be way better communicated tho, if thats the intention). Far too many games are lost because an attacker team is too defensive.

(meditativePillar) #37

This game is the world series of spawn camping. I think they have improved on the time honored tradition of murdering people before they can take a step. I bow to you devs. Good show.

(intenseHoliday) #38

@MissMurder said:
How often would you guys say you run into this and on which maps?

I ran into it like 2 times but the worst one out of them was in bridge while I was in the attacking team and the defending team had 2 aimees , 2 auras , 1 thunder , 1 phoenix and 1 arty.

Every time my team spawned we got conc by thunder and had the affect that aimee can apply with her snitch device until we pushed out in the last minute but we lost the game.

(LifeupOmega) #39

Wow I haven’t seen this thread since, well, June. That’s almost a year now. Holy shit.