your argument meant nothing, as that low scoring level 31 could have just joined the game later and not from the start. If people disliked your post it’s because levels and hence experience do matter.
Telling people to go play more instead of ranting here, is basically telling: go get a higher level so you don’t have to complain. What kind of solution is that? There will still be newcomers and those who kept learning and playing will become the high levels that will keep turning games unbalanced.
And regardless of levels, people joining mid-game or switching, just as much as player number imbalance when people leave is something that affects and will keep affecting games in the long run if an automatic shuffle and mid-game balancing system is not implemented.
That’s why you got disliked. Because you’re the 1000th person who still doesn’t get what’s wrong with the current balancing system, nothing else.[/quote]
So what do you want? Auto-shuffle every 5 minutes? :DD
And what if a person leaves after the auto-shuffle kicks in? Another auto-shuffle? :DD
How are you exactly going to determine how to shuffle? XP? KD? What??
Come on guys, think about what exactly you are asking for in more detail before you start asking for something that just cannot really work
Before we get community ran servers, only thing to do is to IMPROVE YOUR OWN GAME and be the example player that switch teams when needed.
The reality is folks there is no such thing as balancing on a pub, an arbitrary set of numbers can not effectively measure how well someone will do.
What if they have a new sens or mouse?
What if they have something else on their mind, distracting them from play?
What if they are trying a merc they haven’t before? Or are doing something specifically for missions?
What if someone else is playing on their account? What if someone has a friend who comes over, and they swap every game so they can both play?
What if someone simply got lucky? Was intoxicated and therefore had an adrenaline rush?
There’s so much you can’t account for, it’s simply random numbers. The only thing you can account for is YOU, if you’re going to play the game, do your job. Nobody’s asking you to have leet dm skills, but to simply know your role and stick with it. Even I am guilty of this, I try way too hard as a Medic to shoot and kill people that I miss revives and heals.
That looks as if the players were trying to play with each other and switched teams. I played against 4 players the other day that were able to get on the same team in four out of five games eventually. It happens. Either that or a couple of those players are just as bad as the level 3-5’s that are on both teams. Considering the scores it could be either.
Forced auto-balance is used in some games on some public servers which is entirely driven by the community. But it’s not for everybody as there are a lot of people who will never touch those servers for many reasons (and not because they want to stomp).
Basically, you would try to solve one problem while creating a problem for others. What should be done is the vote system needs to be fixed where if you abstain it’s not counted as a No. If a vote to shuffle is put up and it passes it means the people who participated wanted it. That’s reasonable I think.
I’m level 26 and I exclusively play pubs. And I know I’m not the only one. As to my performance in-game. Just watch the last stream with shoe and you’ll see I finished first of my team in the second game. I don’t consider myself a bad player and I assume many people would agree that I actually have skill and knowledge about the game. I’m not saying I’m close to the best DB players, far from it, but I do make a difference when playing.
Now that that is out of the way, I have to add that I do switch when possible and when seeing that the game is imbalanced. Unfortunately, it always turns out one of two ways: either the game was imbalanced without my input and I cannot change the course of the game, going through a suffering crush. Or I end up turning the game imbalanced, but for the other team. Manual individual switching just doesn’t work. It’s not by changing one variable out of 12, even 16, that you’re going to change something. Balance needs to happen on a global scale.
And when I say automatic shuffling, I don’t mean automatic as in every x minutes. I mean automatic as in no voting. Leave to an algorithm rather than stupid, selfish or inattentive people. If a vote shuffle gets called, then the system checks for a total team score imbalance & number of player imbalance (although this should be a constant balancing, just like in Natural Selection 2). If the difference between total team scores is higher than 9k for 6vs6, 10k and 12k for the higher player number servers respectively, then the shuffle will occur.
By ensuring the difference between total score of the shuffled teams is minimal, you’ll get the best balanced experience. That’s how it should be. If people leave after the shuffle, unless there is another shuffle call, nothing will happen and if someone does call it, the scores will most likely not have changed and the system will simply od nothing. That’s how easy it can be implemented.
Basically, you would try to solve one problem while creating a problem for others. What should be done is the vote system needs to be fixed where if you abstain it’s not counted as a No. If a vote to shuffle is put up and it passes it means the people who participated wanted it. That’s reasonable I think.[/quote]
I’ve said it before and I believe it more and more as time passes: Blanc votes are votes for the majority!
It should be the number 1 change in the next update.
@Lumi Yeah I agree that people ignoring votes can be really frustrating and yes I agree that if someone skips voting it should be counted as “yes”.
But what you described is not something that “can be easily implemented” as you imply and unfortunately it’s not something that will work as you envision.
Again please, try to understand the main root of the problem. Right now DB has just one kind of public server, so all different flavours of players are joining together. You will never, ever balance this just by some artifical stats (KD, XP, ELO whatever).
It’s a sad truth but truth. I appreciate you are trying to switch teams and I understand it’s just not enough sometimes. We need more people like this. But do not expect SD to implement some magical auto-balance as it just cannot really work.
You mentioned NS2 as an example, but this is a completely different game and just look how much effort those guys put into making sure people learns the basics and understand the overall concept. Also there is a commander role that is greatly helping navigating newer players, helping them to understand what they are supposed to do. (with specific newbie friendly servers made for players to learn the game, which is different from our Level 5).
The community is also different, you join as noob to normal server, you get kicked out immediately if you don’t know what you are doing
I don’t agree with that at all as it would also have negative consequences fairly often. I do believe that if votes started passing people would start participating more which would then end up working more like every other game server I’ve ever played on that allows votes. People tend to ignore votes in DB because they just don’t ever pass or matter (and a lot of times it’s usually a person spamming something to try and troll too). But if vote suddenly started passing pretty much the entire popular would very much start paying attention. This is how pretty much every other public server in every other game works. Not sure what SD decided to take the current route with voting
[quote=“Lumi;99644”]
And when I say automatic shuffling, I don’t mean automatic as in every x minutes. I mean automatic as in no voting. Leave to an algorithm rather than stupid, selfish or inattentive people. If a vote shuffle gets called, then the system checks for a total team score imbalance & number of player imbalance (although this should be a constant balancing, just like in Natural Selection 2). If the difference between total team scores is higher than 9k for 6vs6, 10k and 12k for the higher player number servers respectively, then the shuffle will occur.
By ensuring the difference between total score of the shuffled teams is minimal, you’ll get the best balanced experience. That’s how it should be. If people leave after the shuffle, unless there is another shuffle call, nothing will happen and if someone does call it, the scores will most likely not have changed and the system will simply od nothing. That’s how easy it can be implemented. [/quote]
I hope you realize that’s fucking ridiculous
First of all, if it’s a full blown stomp, the scores will not get that high, the top guy will get about 15-25 kills at the most, it depends largely on the map.
Second, WHY are you punishing people for doing well? That’s not so much balancing as it is overdoing it as a referee. People need to lose so they learn WHY they lose. And no amount of balancing is going to make up for simple lack of game knowledge and skill, which is common on a PUBLIC server.
This is what I want to stress most, PUBLIC server, you can not force people to play a certain way, they have to learn on their own. And how do they learn? By making mistakes, it takes a certain type of player to look at what they are doing wrong and analyze it, and unfortunately there aren’t many of those these days because people are so damn used to these casual shooters like Call of Duty, and YES, Overwatch and TF2.
Fact of the matter is, the mindset is what separates players, and that’s something that simply can not be given a number or rank. Hardcore players will play a certain way, Casual players will play another way, and until Splash Damage makes Competitive a more enticing and interesting option, whether it has it’s own set of missions, guaranteed cases, etc, you will have this mix of players with different goals and mindsets.
So, while I get where you are coming from, this is where I have to say you need to stop. This pursuit of truly balanced games is impossible, because there are simply too many factors that come into play, hell, often times it’s not even a matter of player skill, but the mercs and team composition as well. What are you going to do about that? Force someone to play Medic? Merc limits? You have to realize how complicated this is.
Oh I’m sorry, I didn’t know you were the kind of people who likes to dominate noobs. My bad I offended you with it.
Most games involve such total score differences which amounts to about 1500 points less per player than the other team. That’s a lot of difference. That’s basically having an imbalanced game. It’s not learning through mistakes, it’s just having experienced people stomping newcomers. Disliking something that would actually fix these extreme situations is admitting that you love to feel superior and participate actively in such noob stompings.
The picture shown above barely scrapes the 5k points of difference. It’s imbalanced, yet it’s not something that would call out for an automated shuffle. If the limit at which the automated shuffle system kicks in is too low, then it can be abused. This is why I set the limit so high, but values can always be adjusted.
Finally, I’m sorry to be the one to tell you, but dominating a game where the other team is clueless is not playing good. And that’s where the mentality of people is wrong. This is why so many people disagree about levels actually mattering. People think that because they’re winning there is no imbalance, that they are just better. Yes they are better, that’s why there is an imbalance!
Balancing isn’t about punishing the better player or rewarding the less experienced player. Balancing is about mixing up good and bad players in such a fashion that both teams end up in a fair fight. You don’t see a heavy weight boxing champion fighting a light weight champion because it wouldn’t be fair. Why should online sports (I think we can start calling multiplayer FPS an online sports) be any different?
Feeling the game is fair because you’re the heavy weight champion doesn’t make the game balanced. Learn the difference. The game is frustrating when I have a team full of newcomers versus veterans, yet it is incredibly boring when I’m in the veterans’ team. We need to properly mix up both populations to obtain a decent game. The “shut up git gud” mentality is not helping anyone.
I’ve brought this up over and over, its not only to do with the levels, i’ve had games where the enemy’s score is 12k - 10k -9k and my team starts at 4k and gets lower.
I’ve personally NEVER seen a balance vote go through, it just won’t.
Either people love to win or they dont want to be separated from their friends or just dont even realize there is a vote. the system just doesnt work, i’ll try my best, but you cant outgun an entire team of enemies solo.
There isn’t really much anyone can do about it though, auto balance systems and all that wont really work, it does in csgo, but that game has such a huge player base that no one really cares, in db, you do this, and you might end up pissing “those who wanna play with their friends”
Oh I’m sorry, I didn’t know you were the kind of people who likes to dominate noobs. My bad I offended you with it.[/quote]
congrats, you’re just as bad as Pecka, assuming people play pubs because they want to dominate people, in reality, comp match making sucks, and I much rather just hop in and out of a pub than have to dedicate 30 mins or more of my time to a game.
[quote=“Lumi;99665”]
Most games involve such total score differences which amounts to about 1500 points less per player than the other team. That’s a lot of difference. That’s basically having an imbalanced game. It’s not learning through mistakes, it’s just having experienced people stomping newcomers. Disliking something that would actually fix these extreme situations is admitting that you love to feel superior and participate actively in such noob stompings. [/quote]
Or that I get fed up with people making excuses of why they lost, instead of learning why, or how every attempt to balance the game on pubs makes them less fun overall to play with people I actually know. A public server is meant to be a not so serious environment, but you still of course have to you know, try, which a lot of people don’t.
[quote=“Lumi;99665”]
The picture shown above barely scrapes the 5k points of difference. It’s imbalanced, yet it’s not something that would call out for an automated shuffle. If the limit at which the automated shuffle system kicks in is too low, then it can be abused. This is why I set the limit so high, but values can always be adjusted.[/quote]
And it’s also incredibly inconsistent and impossible to find a real sweet spot, because again, every map is different, and team composition is a huge factor, as well as your role and what you’re doing.
You could get a shit ton of points but die often and get very little kills, but you’re doing your job at damaging the EV, planting bombs, healing, reviving, ammo, etc.
[quote=“Lumi;99665”]
Finally, I’m sorry to be the one to tell you, but dominating a game where the other team is clueless is not playing good. And that’s where the mentality of people is wrong. This is why so many people disagree about levels actually mattering. People think that because they’re winning there is no imbalance, that they are just better. Yes they are better, that’s why there is an imbalance![/quote]
I can assure you my ego isn’t that huge, I do not think I am better than anyone else, because that implies it’s difficult to get where I have. IT’S NOT, and I am so sick of people making excuses for that.
Your level has jack diddly fucking squat to do with it, a level 7 player can easily stomp with the 20s and 30s if he’s used to shooters. If you want to imply DM matters, then yes, it does, but so does game knowledge and playing as a team, not running off and doing what you want.
[quote=“Lumi;99665”]
Balancing isn’t about punishing the better player or rewarding the less experienced player. Balancing is about mixing up good and bad players in such a fashion that both teams end up in a fair fight. You don’t see a heavy weight boxing champion fighting a light weight champion because it wouldn’t be fair. Why should online sports (I think we can start calling multiplayer FPS an online sports) be any different?[/quote]
You want the simplest answer? Ok, because it’s a damn pub and not competitive, when play with your buddies in Basketball and Football, do you really bitch about what the teams look like? What you want is matchmaking, and that’s not the purpose of a public server. They are meant to be easy to hop on and off with no dedication needed, THAT is what comp is for, if you want that then push for a better Competitive mode with more incentives. You’re not going to get those inexperienced players to play any better, they’ll have a couple of guys who do all the work and they do NOTHING.
And it’s also incredibly frustrating to be the sole reason your team wins becuase you’re doing ALL the work, which HAS happened and it happens constantly. And THAT is my point.
It’s not a matter of my own skill or whatever, the bottom fucking line, the golden truth here, is people do not fucking understand how to play. Plain and simple, I am not talking about DM, I am talking about roles, and what working as a team means.
All too often I have to constantly tell people to give me ammo, revive, and not repair or plant, BUT THEY DO IT ANYWAY.
You wanna solve this problem? Push for a better damn tutorial that’s mandatory, make a video series showing people how to play properly. No amount of game balance is suddenly going to make that guy who doesn’t throw ammo, ACTUALLY DO IT. Or that Medic who never revives, actually do her job.
It’s not something that is going to be fixed by forcing the public server to be taken seriously, it is only going to be fixed when players get a proper education of what to do.
@Lumi If you want to use weight classes as an example then what happens when one person fights another at the same weight? Do you believe that will always result in a fair fight? How about if one of these guys has 12 years experience but the new guy only has 2 or 3. Is the guy with 12 years experience guaranteed to win? Is it even guaranteed to be a close fight?
You first say you don’t want to play comp as it forces you to play it until the end. I agree with that too, that’s why I play pubs. But then you say that I should go to comp if I want balanced games. I say no. I’m entitles to expect balanced games anywhere.
Even in the backyard basketball games if the teams are not balanced, the crushed team is just going to leave and not take it. What isn’t fun just isn’t, no matter the context.
I’ve also pushed for forced tutorials many times, yet that doesn’t seem to be happening anytime soon.
Finally you can say all you want that someone not throwing ammo will keep not doing it, and I agree, but by balancing a game you’ll have that person being useless on the right team. Instead of having two people not throwing ammo in a team, you’ll have one on each team.
Balancing is just as much to spread skill as to spread the useless. Every team should have a burden to carry, not just one.
We can’t say beforehand, but at least they all start on a level playing field. On one vs one, it’s always the individual that’s going to matter. In team sports it’s classifications that match you up for the same game’s and team don’t vary. Online multiplayer is the only place where strangers team up for a common goal. Making sure they’re evenly distributed should be a priority.
We can’t say beforehand, but at least they all start on a level playing field. On one vs one, it’s always the individual that’s going to matter. In team sports it’s classifications that match you up for the same game’s and team don’t vary. Online multiplayer is the only place where strangers team up for a common goal. Making sure they’re evenly distributed should be a priority.[/quote]
Yet there are people in boxing and MMA whose sole job is to come up with interesting and even match-ups yet many times, more often than not, they are anything but interesting or even. The perceived playing field is that they are coming in at the same weight. Things are “even” in one regard only. But that doesn’t stop any number of other variables from making the match a complete blow-out. How do you account for this when the fight is between professionals and was matched up by somebody who wanted an even fight?
You first say you don’t want to play comp as it forces you to play it until the end. I agree with that too, that’s why I play pubs. But then you say that I should go to comp if I want balanced games. I say no. I’m entitles to expect balanced games anywhere.[/quote]
Um, no, you’re not, and that’s where you’re confused. Playing in comp means you’re going to play with people that are on top of their game, and the difference between players is so minimal that you’ll not notice if you aren’t used to it.
You are not at all entitled to balance on a public server, because that destroys their whole purpose. It’s kinda like expecting an arcade to tell people who’ve been beating everyone on Street Fighter to leave, because it makes things unfun for everyone else. Or someone to make a guy leave the ball game because he’s “too good” to play with everyone else.
There’s a difference between playing in an open area or in a public place, vs playing in a league or tournament with rules.
[quote=“Lumi;99665”]
Even in the backyard basketball games if the teams are not balanced, the crushed team is just going to leave and not take it. What isn’t fun just isn’t, no matter the context. [/quote]
Welcome to life
[quote=“Lumi;99665”]
I’ve also pushed for forced tutorials many times, yet that doesn’t seem to be happening anytime soon.[/quote]
Nothing to say to that except let’s hope for the next update to address it.
[quote=“Lumi;99680”]
Finally you can say all you want that someone not throwing ammo will keep not doing it, and I agree, but by balancing a game you’ll have that person being useless on the right team. Instead of having two people not throwing ammo in a team, you’ll have one on each team.
Balancing is just as much to spread skill as to spread the useless. Every team should have a burden to carry, not just one.[/quote]
Congrats, cause guess what, THAT ALREADY HAPPENS
It’s just a matter of well people adapt to it, or manage to do well DESPITE that.
So, again, balancing won’t fix that, every team has a low end of players, and every team has a top 3 or a mvp. What they do now is honestly already pretty frustrating because I can’t even play with my friends, who absolutely refuse to play against me. They rather play Counter Strike cause we play with each other.
So, that aspect of the game is ruined, why? Because you don’t want to deal with people not playing properly, like everyone else does.
It’s just part of how these games work, if you want truly balanced, play comp, because that’s where that belongs, I can guarantee you you will NEVER be satisfied on a pub.
Unless I play with friends in a team I will NEVER be satisfied by comp.
Hence, we either need something new or something changed. Otherwise, me and many people in my situation will get bored of the game and move on. crossing fingers that my Overwatch beta access arrives soon
It’s just part of how these games work, if you want truly balanced, play comp, because that’s where that belongs, I can guarantee you you will NEVER be satisfied on a pub.
[/quote]
Unless I play with friends in a team I will NEVER be satisfied by comp.
Hence, we either need something new or something changed. Otherwise, me and many people in my situation will get bored of the game and move on. crossing fingers that my Overwatch beta access arrives soon[/quote]
And then you’ll play Overwatch and have the same problem, and then you’ll come back to Dirty Bomb because it isn’t a rpg trying to be a shooter.
@laudatoryLunch I just see you are clicking dislike buttons on all posts but not providing any constructive comments. Well, good game, if that’s similar approach you take to DB gaming. Getting beated on public server, and instead of improving your game, you just cry on forum :DD
