Am i the only one who felt extremely dissapointed with the Season 2 update?

(Xyfurion) #21

Alright, here goes nothing. First of all, Burst Rifles were nerfed. Before the nerf, they were insanely overpowered, now they have been nerfed significantly; enough to require skill rather than spam. It is not an instant loss if you are against a Thunder with a Stark AR. If you lose, it’s your own fault.

Now, the grandeur. I honestly cannot use it. However, put it in the hands of a really good Redeye, and you have a beast. That is called individual skill. Consider it.

Thirdly, Thunder. I’ll agree that he is a pain to play against, especially if he is good. Thunder might need some adjustments to his concussion grenade, but not an outright removal from the game.

No matter what Splash Damage does, you lot will always complain about some merc. From Phantom to Redeye to Phoenix to Thunder to Fragger to Fletcher. When will you dumbasses learn to shut the hell up and enjoy the goddamn game. No one likes to play with whiny idiots.

@Pumpkiller

I’f anybody had near flawless tracking skills,i sure they would’ve chose burst rifles over an M4

Yea, congrats. That’s called skill.

I propose one simple experiment to prove that those nerfs on bursties and on Thunder did their job and that i’m a scrub:Use a Stark Thunder in a stopwatch/objective match,and try to have a k/d that goes below 1 while playing seriously.

That’s a terrible experiment if you ask me. You have the independent and dependent variable. No control variable. Only 1 trial. There are 3 or more lurking variables: your skill, and the skill of the people you are playing against, and the skill of your team.

To address this point

Burst rifles are spammier than shotguns

No they are not. With a burst rifle I can jump like a spastic and still manage to get 2 kills. With a shotgun, due to its spread, I can easily get 2 kills while beating the hell out of my space bar.

(onLooSe) #22

What the hell is going on in those forums ?! Are you for real?!

(bgyoshi) #23

Welcome to competitive anything.

Pick any game with a competitive community. It literally does not matter what game you choose.

Meta-game is players finding the absolutely best performance given a specific set of settings and the absolute best counter to those things, and balancing the pros and cons to reach a mathematically superior performance structure.

No matter what SD does, you will always encounter the same exact mercs using the same exact loadout cards with the same exact team composition on the same exact maps in the same exact group formation on the same exact objective. Today, it’s Thunder. Then Thunder gets nerfed into oblivion, making some other merc suddenly the top of the tier. Then everyone is using THAT merc instead.

If you’re here to play a diverse game, you will not find it in comp.

If you’re here to play a balanced game, you will not find it in comp. You will find the best of the best possible way to play 5v5, using as many non-cheat exploits as possible.

If you’re here to play against every merc in the game, you will not find it in comp.

Competitive is, and always will be COMPETITIVE. There is no possible way to perfectly balance every merc AND make them completely unique from one another. There will ALWAYS be a “best team composition” and EVERY TEAM is going to do THAT.

(KangaJoo) #24

[quote=“everlovestruck;c-222457”]> @neverplayserious said:

nice thread, but gl trying to convince anyone on these forums, most of the people here haven’t even realised yet that burst rifles are op ^.^

You’re just saying that because you’ve been killed a lot by BRs
That’s subjective.
If you attach a screenshot with how well you can do with them yourself, it may mean something.

(Spoiler)[/quote]

Except it’s objectively better than all the automatic rifles in both dps and accuracy, the two most important aspects of a weapon when it comes to its combat effectiveness.

@GatoCommodore Speak for yourself about tracking consistency. Many players can track equally well with burst and full auto weapons. Objectively speaking, the only thing that would affect tracking ability are variables that don’t rely on player skill like spread. That said, I agree that most players will probably do better with a full auto rifle.

(everlovestruck) #25

@KangaJoo said:
Except it’s objectively better than all the automatic rifles in both dps and accuracy, the two most important aspects of a weapon when it comes to its combat effectiveness.

Though BRs get massive spread if getting aimpunched and/or jumping

(KangaJoo) #26

@bgyoshi Yep, that’s true but I think a big part of why people complain about thunder in particular is because it’s just not fun to play against. Nobody likes dying in a way they feel they couldn’t have prevented given the knowledge they had available to them and that happens a lot when playing against him.

(GatoCommodore) #27

but they were okay tho dying instantly from fragger cooked nade
even tho thunder ability is more forgiving

(n-x) #28

@GatoCommodore Fragger grenades kill you or they dont. Thunders grenades are just annoying. You cant see shit and press a direction key in the hope of getting around the corner and suddenly you see your health drop. Or you make it out of the white screen alive only to see the chubby bastard coming around the corner but you can hardly move and your aim is fucked up.

Dying to a frag grenade is like somebody knocking you out with a first heavy hit
Dying to a thunder grenade is like somebody is tying you up and then beating the crap out of you, sometimes even with the help of his friends.

Thunders grenade is just an insane design failure maybe in general but definitely how it is at the moment. I would like to know if SD would introduce him now again exactly like he is with the knowledge they have now. Or if they just dont change him because they have no clue what to do with him.

(Xyfurion) #29

What the hell is going on in those forums ?! Are you for real?![/quote]

Yea Done. Check above.

(GatoCommodore) #30

[quote=“n-x;c-222571”]@GatoCommodore Fragger grenades kill you or they dont. Thunders grenades are just annoying. You cant see @$!# and press a direction key in the hope of getting around the corner and suddenly you see your health drop. Or you make it out of the white screen alive only to see the chubby @$!# coming around the corner but you can hardly move and your aim is @$!# up.

Dying to a frag grenade is like somebody knocking you out with a first heavy hit
Dying to a thunder grenade is like somebody is tying you up and then beating the crap out of you, sometimes even with the help of his friends.

Thunders grenade is just an insane design failure maybe in general but definitely how it is at the moment. I would like to know if SD would introduce him now again exactly like he is with the knowledge they have now. Or if they just dont change him because they have no clue what to do with him.

[/quote]

dying instantly is not annoying
have a chance to not die and shoot back at enemies because conc doesnt deal damage is annoying

its annoying how people these days dont use some kind of basic knowledge yknow
please read your own word, are you serious about it?

(GatoCommodore) #31

Thunder relies on his own gun to get kills, if his conc explode but he is not in range, pretty fat chance everybody lives

fragger can kill with ability and burst rifle
may i remind the people that the range of the frag grenade is very far?
may i remind you how fragger can spawn camp with the grenade and easily kill 1 team in last stage bridge?

if you didnt die from his nade, pretty big fat chance you will get gunned down while trying to hold that 10hp of yours

(neverplayseriou) #32

Fragger nade, easy to see coming and easy to avoid.

Thunder nade, barely ever visible on screen, impossible to avoid since turning around is pointless and it can even go through walls, has an effective range of the entire map.

burst rifles, effective when jumping like a retard, laser accurate, easily spammable, low skill high reward, click once, adjust your aim, click again and get a kill.

m4, not effective whilst jumping (not even effective when walking and hipfiring at the same time), requires constant tracking even though rng spread will screw you over anyways, moderate/high skill, somewhat decent reward.

Seriously funny how clueless people on here are, thinking the m4 and burst rifles are still the same as they were in 2015 when the m4 was actually accurate and burst rifles took actual skill rather than spam.

(n-x) #33

@GatoCommodore Do you know how precise and lucky you have to be, to frag a whole team with one frag grenade, bodies blocking explosion wave, they need to be close enough together and so on. Thunder basically just needs to throw the grenade in the area and no matter where you stand. You get affected.

And still there is the point that Thunder is banned in pugs and DBN. You can argue all you want, but I for my part go with the players who play this format every day on a high level. And if they come to the conclusion that he should be banned. He should be banned. First hand experience outweight some nice theoratical argument for me.

(GatoCommodore) #34

tell me about when they are cooked and explode on your face

the conc literally have the same red ring and a high pitched sound as the frag grenade
going thru walls was fixed in the last “tweak”

quoted: “Adjust your aim”
also, that spread while getting shot and while jumping is nothing to be laughed at

[quote=“neverplayseriou;c-222577”] m4, not effective whilst jumping (not even effective when walking and hipfiring at the same time), requires constant tracking even though rng spread will @$!# you over anyways, moderate/high skill, somewhat decent reward.
[/quote]

quoted: “Constant Tracking”
but Burst Rifles need aim leading.

but-but that what makes it OP amirite EXDEE

Seriously funny how clueless people on here are, thinking the m4 and burst rifles are still the same as they were in before februay 2016

(GatoCommodore) #35

[quote=“n-x;c-222579”]@GatoCommodore Do you know how precise and lucky you have to be, to frag a whole team with one frag grenade, bodies blocking explosion wave, they need to be close enough together and so on. Thunder basically just needs to throw the grenade in the area and no matter where you stand. You get affected.

And still there is the point that Thunder is banned in pugs and DBN. You can argue all you want, but I for my part go with the players who play this format every day on a high level. And if they come to the conclusion that he should be banned. He should be banned. First hand experience outweight some nice theoratical argument for me.[/quote]

maybe you should know thunder Conc has bigger area since it has no damage, relying on weapon damage.

but but 2 fragger is okay right? becuz insta-kill 170dmg is not annoying
but but 3 sticky is okay right? becuz 3x80 insta damage is not annoying

thunder is banned on Pugs and DBN because back then he was broken
(uhh hello? new tweaks update calling from 2017?)

also, theres a chance that the people playing there refuse to adapt to Thunder nade and just call it broken but they definetly not banning fletcher and fragger and call bushwhacker balanced right?

(ostmustis) #36

look whos wrong! no shotgun can deal 192 dmg in a shot.

also sure there are situations m4 can be better but ~4/5 times the burst is superior.

(neverplayseriou) #37

@GatoCommodore new tweaks? they didn’t fix shit, he’s still as broken as he was before, go play the fucking game, jesus christ get out of your max lvl 5 lobby.

(ThunderZsolt) #38

[quote=“neverplayseriou;c-222577”]Fragger nade, easy to see coming and easy to avoid.

Thunder nade, barely ever visible on screen, impossible to avoid since turning around is pointless and it can even go through walls, has an effective range of the entire map.

burst rifles, effective when jumping like a @$!#, laser accurate, easily spammable, low skill high reward, click once, adjust your aim, click again and get a kill.

m4, not effective whilst jumping (not even effective when walking and hipfiring at the same time), requires constant tracking even though rng spread will @$!# you over anyways, moderate/high skill, somewhat decent reward.

Seriously funny how clueless people on here are, thinking the m4 and burst rifles are still the same as they were in 2015 when the m4 was actually accurate and burst rifles took actual skill rather than spam.[/quote]

I’ve playing against at least one Thunder every single game since the update, but never got conced through walls this far - so yes, it is fixed now IMO. I agree that he is still OP and broken though - the CD should be at least 20 seconds (or even 25) on conc.

Burst rifles are indeed laser accurate while strafing, but not while jumping, and especially not while getting shot. Sure, you might jump between two bursts, but that means the enemies can stop strafing and focus on shooting you, because you can’t shoot while jumping. If you get familiar with the stark’s burst delay, you can juke it hard in CQC, just like shotguns - change direction just before it comes off of cooldown.
Also the spread increases quickly when spamming, so you want to wait more than the burst delay before shooting again.

Another factor that most forum warriors ignore regarding burst rifles, that if you miss one burst, you’ve lost the 1v1 fight. Not everyone has hands with human aimbot built in. My most used weapon is the Stark AR and I still only have 38% accuracy with it. That means that I have 62% chance to deal 0 damage. To get the best results, you have to predict where the enemies will be, rather than tracking (reacting to) their movement. It is harder to do IMO, especially against good players (although I admit they aren’t easy to track either).

With the M4, my accuracy is even worse (34%), but that comes in the form of a steady DPS even if I miss every now and then. Also, if I encounter a quick female merc in close quarters, I just spray in the general direction of their head, and they die. You can’t do that with burst rifles.

TL,DR:
burst rifles have more DPS and accuracy, have the ability to instakill light mercs - better at range
M4 is more consistent and easier to use - better at CQC

You seem to completely ignore that not everyone has 80%+ accuracy. Seems we agree that if the player’s accuracy becomes better, the burst rifles become better compared to full auto ones.
The problem is the sweet spot, at which accuracy % they have similar time to kill? At my level (38% and 34%) they are basically the same, so they are balanced IMO.

Final thought:
If the BR-16 and the M4 would have the same accuracy and DPS, would you still prefer the burst rifle?

(ostmustis) #39

so you get higher acc on a higher dps weapon that can “1shot” 1/3 of the mercs and think its balanced?

(ThunderZsolt) #40

If you ask me, I’d say yes. All primary weapons kill those mercanaries under 0.5 second, which isn’t much worse considering there is up to 100ms latency + the reaction time of an average human being is more than 250ms. (source)
so you have that less than 0.2 seconds to stay alive and/or trying to fight back.

DPS on burst weapons is theoretical, because you would need a macro to reach that (don’t do it, it is considered cheating in DB and gets you banned) - you click faster, and the weapon doesn’t fire -> you lose DPS, you click slower -> you lose DPS.

And as I’ve said earlier, if you spam burst weapons close to the limit, it loses accuracy quickly. So you only can’t have both the better DPS and the better accuracy at the same time.

Yes, burst weapon are more versatile, but are harder to use. Also, you don’t lose automatically with an M4 or Timik against a burst rifle if the player skill is equal - as for the other weapons, rifles are meant to be better than SMGs