after scrimming this game a bit

(phaZon) #1

first i’d like to thank the people who made this, pretty sure its accurate. go to the “stats” sheet on the bottom for all the real useful info: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yYDiX77THpjA-hImu2eRLio-ayOvGnDEeorZgHAieVQ/edit#gid=0

a few ideas that would really help this game…

–on revive, give ~10% more health, but for the love of god please remove the 2-3s invulnerability. more often than not people will get rez’d on a healing station and get full hp before they start shooting or the medic will use the down’d fragger as a bodyshield, it’s a stupid mechanic

–make fraggers nades uncookable, but increase the damage significantly and drop the fuse time by a second. this will help achieve their utility purpose of area denial/destroying health stations but not make it so that people who practiced nading for a few hours straight have the ability to instagib people around corners (there’s really no counterplay to it)

–skyhammers guns really need to be significantly buffed; sawbone’s guns (crotzni) are at a good ttk spot but they all kill faster than skyhammers (which makes really no sense at all…lets be honest, this is the slowest shooting m4 i’ve ever seen in a video game). the ttk should be ever-so-slightly lower if anything, not higher. the best way to refelct that is to put skyhammer’s guns in-line with the rest of the cast. the higher it is, the less emphasis you put on good twitch aiming skills.

none of this is too radical and i’m sure most people who have scrimmed/pugged this game would agree

(primBridge) #2

I really agree with the fragger changes, everyone pretty much knows fragger needs the nerf bat but I really didn’t know how, but that seems like a pretty good idea. Also, Do you have any ideas to make arty a little better? I haven’t played around with him much but I hardly ever see him used and I’ve heard a lot of bad things, so I’d like to hear a little bit more on how to improve him. Ty!

(solt.) #3

I concur with all of these points made. Well proposed.

I feel like these changes are pretty integral to giving this game a solid foundation for competitive play (especially Fragger’s ability to gib with impunity via cooking).

(Szakalot) #4

If fragger’s nades are uncookable its gonna be gdamn boring to use them. I agree that as they are there can be no counterplay: preferred change would be to reduce their flying speed, so the fragger has to lead its target significantly more, and the victim can try to dodge.

Not sure where you got this idea about M4 but I consider it to be one of the best weapons in the game. I also often see the best players use it to devastating effect. Its extremely consistent, with good HS damage you can put anyone down in an instant.

(phaZon) #5

i think arty has a spot in competitve play when there are EVs on the board, the artillery strikes are more consistently available than skyhammer’s ability and are overall better for taking out the ev…hard to balance that single shot gun though, i’d like to see it being a bit more accurate from the hip and have a slight rof increase but we’ll see

[quote=“joshingMorsel;11751”]I concur with all of these points made. Well proposed.

I feel like these changes are pretty integral to giving this game a solid foundation for competitive play (especially Fragger’s ability to gib with impunity via cooking).[/quote]

yeah i mean these is just the things that stand out to me as extremely silly, a lot of people complain about aura but honestly she’s just a pubstomp character and is fine in a scrim/pug/higher-level play enviornment…is she more useful than sawbones? probably…a nerf to the healing station probably wouldn’t break her, but it’s not the most needed change at the moment

(phaZon) #6

[quote=“Szakalot;11752”][quote=“phaZon;2050”]
–make fraggers nades uncookable, but increase the damage significantly and drop the fuse time by a second. this will help achieve their utility purpose of area denial/destroying health stations but not make it so that people who practiced nading for a few hours straight have the ability to instagib people around corners (there’s really no counterplay to it)

–skyhammers guns really need to be significantly buffed; sawbone’s guns (crotzni) are at a good ttk spot but they all kill faster than skyhammers (which makes really no sense at all…lets be honest, this is the slowest shooting m4 i’ve ever seen in a video game). the ttk should be ever-so-slightly lower if anything, not higher. the best way to refelct that is to put skyhammer’s guns in-line with the rest of the cast. the higher it is, the less emphasis you put on good twitch aiming skills.

none of this is too radical and i’m sure most people who have scrimmed/pugged this game would agree

[/quote]

If fragger’s nades are uncookable its gonna be gdamn boring to use them. I agree that as they are there can be no counterplay: preferred change would be to reduce their flying speed, so the fragger has to lead its target significantly more, and the victim can try to dodge.

Not sure where you got this idea about M4 but I consider it to be one of the best weapons in the game. I also often see the best players use it to devastating effect. Its extremely consistent, with good HS damage you can put anyone down in an instant.
[/quote]

not really, you’ll still be able to hail-mary people which is fun…i don’t see the fun in precooking a nade around a corner that will instagib 4 people rushing me…if there is ONE aspect of this game that is inhibiting skillful play, this is it – with a close second to the 3s invulnerability on revive

the m4 actually has a really high ttk, i’m 99% sure that stats sheet is accurate. it really does take a long time to kill people with it. it’s pretty underpowered considering the crotzni is better in almost every aspect (more ammo in clip, faster reload time, faster ttk) and i don’t think it should be nerfed

all guns have the same headshot multiplier, there’s nothing outstanding about the m4’s headshot power

you are entitled to your opinion, but numbers are numbers — it’s a weak gun, a RoF increase could go a long way – its ttk should be similar to k121; more accurate, less ammo in clip vs more ammo in clip and less accurate should be the tradeoff to both of these guns

(Szakalot) #7

Crotzni is Nader’s default, and possible Sawbonez smg , right?

Perhaps we are talking past each other, I was referring to Skyhammer’s default weapon. Its got 35 bullets in clip, Crotzni having 40. So sure, less bullets per clip but where is accuracy in these stats?

I def. have a feel of Crotzni’s accuracy dropping relatively quickly, whereas the M4 pretty much stays pin point accurate throughout the whole clip.

I base my opinion on fragger from W:ET vs ETQW experience.

W:ET had plenty of nades, but they never got out of hand cause it took quite a while for them to travel. You’d only be able to instagib someone if they are within a few metres off you, and you’d need to time&lead your nade perfectly.

In QW nades had wider radius (sort of like Fragger nades) but high flyspeed, this was probably a design decision to make them useful against vehicles. What happened though is constant nade spam indoors, they actually had to disallow nades being replenished through your life; and it would still be way too many nades.

I’m not saying that instagib pre-cooks will be non-existent. But they will be harder to do, and allow for counter play. so overall what we are aiming for, right? Uncookable nades will be gdamn boring to use.

(phaZon) #8

[quote=“Szakalot;11763”]Crotzni is Nader’s default, and possible Sawbonez smg , right?

Perhaps we are talking past each other, I was referring to Skyhammer’s default weapon. Its got 35 bullets in clip, Crotzni having 40. So sure, less bullets per clip but where is accuracy in these stats?[/quote]

i don’t think someone is going to go out of their way to say the crtozni is innacurate bud, for the most part the bullets are going where you aim them…and this is BESIDES the point, the crotzni SHOULD kill slower than the m4, but it doesnt

(Szakalot) #9

You are talking stats based on maximum weapon DPS.

Devs have stats based on their effective DPS (how good are people with them) - hope they will clear it out soon.

In any case, I’ve seen multitudes of very good-aim players absolutely destroying the whole server with skyhammer’s default.

(phaZon) #10

[quote=“Szakalot;11766”]You are talking stats based on maximum weapon DPS.

Devs have stats based on their effective DPS (how good are people with them) - hope they will clear it out soon.

In any case, I’ve seen multitudes of very good-aim players absolutely destroying the whole server with skyhammer’s default.[/quote]

there’s two factors when it comes to damage – burst and dps

you measure things like the shotties based on burst – i.e, you can burst a full hp aura to 0 with a shotgun headshot at close range

considering the m4 doesn’t really do burst damage, dps is probably the most viable metric to measure it

effective dps will vary depending on the player, it’s not really a good way to go about things…just because the m4 is more accurate doesn’t mean its a better choice for the average player…

ever play QL? there’s been a lot of shitty changes they’ve made recently, one being the addition of the HMG – a hitscan mg that is a bit random

a lot of people have higher % aim with the HMG than the LG, even though the LG is literally a laser. why? because people aren’t perfectly accurate – the randomness actually gives them hits when they are just slightly off target

i’m not doubting that at all; one can do very well with the m4

but it’s still a weak gun

(Szakalot) #11

omg, how can you disregard the inherent spread of the weapon, I don’t get it.

if a gun shoots all over the place, it will probably suck, regardless of how many bullets in the clip, and a few points of Max DPS.

(phaZon) #12

[quote=“Szakalot;11769”]omg, how can you disregard the inherent spread of the weapon, I don’t get it.

if a gun shoots all over the place, it will probably suck, regardless of how many bullets in the clip, and a few points of Max DPS.[/quote]

there is no gun in this game that shoots “all over the place”, arguably outside of the timik-47 and the dreiss AR, and even then they are still pretty accurate while hipfiring for awhile

and read what i said bud – inherent randomness isn’t necessarily a bad thing and can actually help people aim better in SOME scenarios

(lovelyRaptor) #13

  • Agree on removing invulnerability.

  • I feel like not being able to cook a nade would make the ability weak. If they were to change it, I think something like the slower travel time as suggested above would be a good idea. As much as I hate getting instagibbed by nades, what annoys me even more is that its coming from the class with the most hp, and most ammo per clip.

This might be kind of an extreme suggestion but I think it would put class balance in a good place personally. I think fraggers nade ability should be swapped with artys. It would make a place for arty in comp play, and fragger would still be considered a strong class. You would maybe need to buff skyhammer slightly in this case though, given fragger would have an ev disabler too.

  • Ive played skyhammer very little in comp so take this with a grain of salt. I can’t quite put my finger on it, but it feels very easy to get headshots in quick succession with the M4. It might be less recoil or the spread, or it can all be in my head. I assumed that was supposed to be the strong suit, and why anyone ever played him outside of disabling EVs.
(einstyle) #14

what really needs to be done about Fraggers nades is to make it so that once you pulled the pin of a grenade, there’s no way of switching back to your weapon to uncook it
the way it is right now you can always sit on your nade, cooking it while moving around corners and in case there’s no one there, quickly switch to your MG so that you don’t have to waste your precious nade
I feel that once this mechanic is out of the way, the ability loses somewhat of it’s versatility it has right now, since you really have to think about the 2 nades you’re going to throw when and where

(fubar) #15

[quote=“phaZon;2050”]
–on revive, give ~10% more health, but for the love of god please remove the 2-3s invulnerability. more often than not people will get rez’d on a healing station and get full hp before they start shooting or the medic will use the down’d fragger as a bodyshield, it’s a stupid mechanic[/quote]

Disagree. Instead change the mechanic of the revivee’. SD needs to stop trying so hard from… not copying ET. You’ve had it right the first time around, stick with it. Revive gets a 2 second invulnerability in which you can not perform an action. You can’t move, you can’t look around, all you can do, literally, is shoot in a straight line. If you’re so paranoid about your users demanding more and more ET/RtCW like features take away the shooting as well.

While we’re on it. Fix the entire god damn spawnshield situation you’ve got going. It’s silly, really.

They’ve already taken nades from us. Please don’t give them any more ideas. For crying out loud, it’s a grenade. It hit you in the face, you die. Get used to it. It’s been around in FPS gaming for 15 years.

Errr. No. Skyhammer’s m4 is actually pretty fucking great. I use it on the fragger as well as skyhammer despite having the option not to. It’s accurate, it’s great on any range, the damage output is average if not slightly above. If anything your aim is lacking.

[quote=“phaZon”]
none of this is too radical and i’m sure most people who have scrimmed/pugged this game would agree[/quote]
No.

(RuleofBooKz) #16

They’ve already taken nades from us. Please don’t give them any more ideas. For crying out loud, it’s a grenade. It hit you in the face, you die. Get used to it. It’s been around in FPS gaming for 15 years.

yes but the silly idea of giving players a wall hack to see where the enemy are has not been around 15 years unless u were a hacker. the ability to see the enemy thru walls, start cooking a nade, and whe nur enemies are just about to round a corner and see you they are already dead from your nade to their face. Wow what a skillful play!!

Do not mess with the rez mechanics. medics rely on that meat shield to get back behind cover.

If yo uare worried about people getting a rez up then gib them on the floor. if its too hard to gib the mon the floor dont mess with the rez mechanics change what it takes to gib someone on the floor.

If u are worried about people being rezzed in the Aura heal AOE dont change the rez mechanics! change the stupid arua AOE mechanics - like if you are damaged then the AOE has no effect for 5 seconds and a slow effect for 7 seconds etc etc make it so AOE only heals one player at a time so people have to leave the AOE etc etc lots of suggestions to fix the broken AOE

(srswizard) #17

Fragger’s nades defo cause the most frustration, because, as pointed out in this thread, there’s no counterplay to it.
In their current state, the nades are incredibly broken, and there’s very little skill involved in using them.
Teams are fishing to get a kill or two with nades (which is just too easy, with cooking), and then push for the objective, with a number advantage, and it’s incredibly boring.

What comes to Skyhammer’s weapons, I find the default rifle to be very strong, and I like the ak47 carbon copy too. I don’t know about BR16.

I’m not gonna discuss revive shield with people who haven’t even played a medic.

(fubar) #18

No, but we had sounds and could listen to footsteps. Something every recent game in the past 6 years seems to be lacking. Seriously, what’s up with that? Do they intentionally have awful positional sound in games these days?

Honestly. Nades aren’t a big deal. Cooking nades even less so. Just because you have the ability to and can, doesn’t always make it the right move either. Not to mention the chance of actually having vasili pokeballs laying about in a high pressure comp match is… very slim to none at all. Timing, prediction and general gamesense are still a skill a lot of people seem to lack or even undervalue, all things that come into nade play.

I feel like the majority of you people, that whine so much about spam wouldn’t last a minute in a proper ET or RtCW game. Have you guys missed the fact that everyone had cookable nades? Every. Single. Person. On both teams. Engineers and soldiers even had 4 of them! (8, in rtcw) all the while we had airstrikes, artilleries, rifles, panzers, landmines and other shenanigans going about as well.

(RuleofBooKz) #19

In QW promod all nades were removed - also the rader / 3rd eye camera wallhack thing. Removed. Made for a much better game :wink:

(Humbug) #20

[quote=“fubar;11880”][quote=“RuleofBooKz;11861”]
yes but the silly idea of giving players a wall hack to see where the enemy are has not been around 15 years unless u were a hacker. the ability to see the enemy thru walls, start cooking a nade, and whe nur enemies are just about to round a corner and see you they are already dead from your nade to their face. Wow what a skillful play!!
[/quote]

No, but we had sounds and could listen to footsteps. Something every recent game in the past 6 years seems to be lacking. Seriously, what’s up with that? Do they intentionally have awful positional sound in games these days?

Honestly. Nades aren’t a big deal. Cooking nades even less so. Just because you have the ability to and can, doesn’t always make it the right move either. Not to mention the chance of actually having vasili pokeballs laying about in a high pressure comp match is… very slim to none at all. Timing, prediction and general gamesense are still a skill a lot of people seem to lack or even undervalue, all things that come into nade play.

I feel like the majority of you people, that whine so much about spam wouldn’t last a minute in a proper ET or RtCW game. Have you guys missed the fact that everyone had cookable nades? Every. Single. Person. On both teams. Engineers and soldiers even had 4 of them! (8, in rtcw) all the while we had airstrikes, artilleries, rifles, panzers, landmines and other shenanigans going about as well. [/quote]

In ET maps were way bigger and not so narrow and it took 1 second longer to cook a grenade. It just wasn’t as powerful as in DB