Advanced Movement: walljumping/running/ledge-grab

(rookie1) #121

[QUOTE=.FROST.;468796]Lol, also have that game, love it. I have all the comics from Rogue, awesome stuff. So much more cynical and dark than most of the american (mainstream)comics at that time. The game’s graphics where already vastly outdated, the day it came out(2006), but man was it fun to play. Even worked extremely well in stereo 3D(nvidia 3Dvision), if it wouldn’t have been for that darn 2D reticle, wich basically sits right between your eyes and makes it kinda annoying to play in 3D over a longer period of time*

*(older games work surprisingly well with 3Dvision, even better than current gen games, probably exactly because of the more simpler graphic/engine)[/QUOTE]
I didnt know at first it was a UK comic… pretty good :),I like this style of graphics , Dont have to be super realistic graphics to be enjoyable.Its a different genre I hope they will do a sequel with a Mp that will work :wink:
And really enjoyed the maps layout ,one of the team guy that did this is a frenlance mapper now in UK

(.FROST.) #122

Yeah, it’s from 2000AD, their most famous character is prolly Judge Dredd. Rebellion is also a UK dev, they made AvP3, for example. But aside from that I haven’t heard much of them lately. I saw Neverdead(the follow up title to AvP3) just the other day in a budget bin, but kinda decided to not pick it up. Maybe next time around. Aside from that I think they are mostly known for their Sniper games. And it seems as if they are also in the F2P mobile market now and funny enough one of their games looks very similar to a certain RAD Soldiers(Maybe not the right place to mention it:rolleyes:), yet the gameplay is quite different, as it appears.

(rookie1) #123

Last Off topic :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
I saw this movie once, idk if ts the same char …loved it .just saying :slight_smile:

(Mustang) #124

It is the same guy.

You should also watch the original film, it was much better.

//youtu.be/I6cL2FBiyZs

(stealth6) #125

What do people mean with strafejumping having a zigzag movement?

This is what I understand by zigzag:

Which I don’t see at all in strafejumping, maybe a sin wave kind of movement, but it’s heavily restricted by the level of aircontrol. Warsow is an example of a game where strafejumping has been implemented and the animations just look like you are leaping. So it doesn’t look wacky at all.

//youtu.be/kUPlwxQ0cC4

Warsow has much faster movement than DB would have. Also I’m not suggesting flat ground jumping which I would be against, just the circle jumping motion as DAUK suggested or W:ET style jumping down hills only etc.

So strafejumping would just be like leaping or running with very big strides.

(DB Genome editor) #126

It’s simply not in a straight line. A sine wave is obviously not as jerky as the true zig-zag you showed, but it is still not the way people normally get from A to B (except for those times they’ve had a few too many :wink:).

…in the context of that game. The whole physics model seems to suggest low gravity or the characters having anti-grav suspension gear (long/high jumps with no run-up, long hang time, huge knockbacks) which fits well with the sci-fi style of the weapons and characters. But not so much with London 2020 as depicted in Xt so far…

Which is where the weirdness comes from because I’ve never seen anyone do that on the street.

Put Xt in a different context, change the setting to a little later in the future and dress all the mercs in funky power armor and this whole discussion about what makes sense or not movement-wise would never have come up. But SD has picked a near-future, fairly “now”-tech setting and they should design within the context they created for the game. They may decide to change that, but until they do the movement system should look consistent with present day physics. But that doesn’t in any way prevent an advanced movement system though. I want to see a system that will allow more skilled players to run faster and jump higher, simply not one where prancing about is the fastest mode of locomotion. I want SD to challenge themselves and come up with something new that will challenge and satisfy the hardcore gamers without offending the style purists.

(k1ruaa) #127

We almost see that during rugby matches, when a player is going to shoot, he makes a movement which looks like circle jump. Except that he doesn’t jump, he shoots. xD

(.FROST.) #128

[QUOTE=Djiesse;468915]It’s simply not in a straight line. A sine wave is obviously not as jerky as the true zig-zag you showed, but it is still not the way people normally get from A to B (except for those times they’ve had a few too many :wink:).

…in the context of that game. The whole physics model seems to suggest low gravity or the characters having anti-grav suspension gear (long/high jumps with no run-up, long hang time, huge knockbacks) which fits well with the sci-fi style of the weapons and characters. But not so much with London 2020 as depicted in Xt so far…

Which is where the weirdness comes from because I’ve never seen anyone do that on the street.

Put Xt in a different context, change the setting to a little later in the future and dress all the mercs in funky power armor and this whole discussion about what makes sense or not movement-wise would never have come up. But SD has picked a near-future, fairly “now”-tech setting and they should design within the context they created for the game. They may decide to change that, but until they do the movement system should look consistent with present day physics. But that doesn’t in any way prevent an advanced movement system though. I want to see a system that will allow more skilled players to run faster and jump higher, simply not one where prancing about is the fastest mode of locomotion. I want SD to challenge themselves and come up with something new that will challenge and satisfy the hardcore gamers without offending the style purists.[/QUOTE]

I’m becoming Djiesse personal fanboy; just everything he said^, once again. Glad I didn’t had to write this wall of text and make myself the forum’s black-sheep once again :wink:

(stealth6) #129

Have you taken a good look at the EV? Looks pretty advanced to me, therefore exoskeletons wouldn’t be that crazy. The technology already exists, it would just be a case of refining it and making the battery smaller. You regenerate life, health and ammo can be dispensed through an aura, medics can revive themselves, tiny grenades provide 3D mapping of enemy forces, … (All seems a little crazy when you think about it?)

But I think we haven’t seen enough of the story yet to make assumptions so I try to stick to what I’d like to see gameplay wise.

As for creating another system altogether I’m not opposed to that idea at all, but I think that would be more work and be a greater risk than strafejumping. (Strafejumping already has everything we want and is not a completely new concept)

Also I’ll say again: the type of strafejumping I’m rooting for is not flat ground jumping. This means in order to keep jumping you’d need to have a downwards slope that’s not too high of a drop to keep chaining jumps. Therefore people aren’t suddenly going to be flying all over the place. (so on average we’re talking about 1-3 consecutive jumps with 3 already being rare)
As for the movement from left to right (‘zigzag’) as I previously hinted towards they could decrease the effect by tweaking aircontrol (which they have already been doing)

The only real concerns I’ve seen are:

As for not being able to copy it exactly: Since there are strafejump bots and tools to train you to jump perfectly I think the methods behind it are well understood so we could get pretty close.

(.FROST.) #130

[QUOTE=stealth6;468922]Have you taken a good look at the EV? Looks pretty advanced to me, therefore exoskeletons wouldn’t be that crazy. The technology already exists, it would just be a case of refining it and making the battery smaller. You regenerate life, health and ammo can be dispensed through an aura, medics can revive themselves, tiny grenades provide 3D mapping of enemy forces, … (All seems a little crazy when you think about it?)

But I think we haven’t seen enough of the story yet to make assumptions so I try to stick to what I’d like to see gameplay wise.[/QUOTE]

It doesn’t matter, the EV doesn’t look extremely advanced when you compare it to modern day War-gimmickery, especially if you look at the US arsenal. Secondly, it takes place 7 years from now; you can twist and turn the predictions you have from 2020, but I doubt, that by then we’ll have anything remotely like exosuits that would let us do stuff like in Warsow. I’m not saying, that there are no exos, since I saw some fairly advanced ones from Raytheon*, but even if it would be possible(in the games reality), non of the Mercs seem to sport such a thing.

The movement is part of the identity of a game, just as much as everything else. Here are a few examples where the movement was(is) a core part of the gameplay, the story and the universe, where the games took(take) place.

Q3:Arena:Bunny-Hopping/Strafe-Jumping
HAWKEN: mix of traditional, slow mech-movement and modern day FPS
Crysis: doing crazy suit stuff
TF2: very fast movement, characters feel like the are moving in a 0,2g(-ravity) environment
Tribes:rocket-suit, consecutive jumping lets you gain speed(big time bunny-hopping)
Portal: don’t need to describe,I guess most of you know how it plays and how you get from A-B there
Mirror’s Edge:introduced Parcour
Brink: kinda failed with Parcour, though the concept was great
Gotham City Impostors: Rollerskates, Grapplegun, getting blown through the half map via vent exhausts, when you have the right gear for that
Battlefield: lots of vehicles to get from A-B
Titanfall: jetpack stuff, wall-running and using a mech
Loadout: Kind of like TF2, but even a bit more extreme, to a point were it looks hilarious(in a good way)
Extraction: could still use some more unique ways to get from A-B

*
//youtu.be/mO0xNI3xpmE

(1-800-NOTHING) #131

healing stations, healing auras, magazines that magically empty/refill themselves, %health, curing massive gunshot wounds (eg. 2-5 shots to the head) with a defibrillator, waving a pair of pliers at a piece of c4 to disarm it/at a vehicle to repair it, theoretically being able to sprint forever without exhaustion, items (like ammo) magically appearing in your inventory without the need to actually pick them up first, weapons that never ever jam, fall damage that has no chance of breaking your legs but instead subtracts a token amount of “HP” from your “HP”.

yes, welcome to the world of realism - it’s got nothing to do with personal preference ™.

jumping = fun.
but, by all means, let’s have some “realistic” and utterly, fantastically boring modern military shooter style cloppety-cloppety movement. :slight_smile:

(.FROST.) #132

[QUOTE=1-800-NOTHING;468938]healing stations, healing auras, magazines that magically empty/refill themselves, %health, curing massive gunshot wounds (eg. 2-5 shots to the head) with a defibrillator, waving a pair of pliers at a piece of c4 to disarm it/at a vehicle to repair it, theoretically being able to sprint forever without exhaustion, items (like ammo) magically appearing in your inventory without the need to actually pick them up first, weapons that never ever jam, fall damage that has no chance of breaking your legs but instead subtracts a token amount of “HP” from your “HP”.

yes, welcome to the world of realism - it’s got nothing to do with personal preference ™.

jumping = fun.
but, by all means, let’s have some “realistic” and utterly, fantastically boring modern military shooter style cloppety-cloppety movement. :)[/QUOTE]

WTF is he talking about, completely nonsensical and completely ignoring the fact, that I’ve said I’d very much welcome stuff like walljumping, wallrunning(to a small extend) and ledge grabbing; basically SMART 2.0. It’s not about motherloving realism, but about what fits the tone of the game and there’s a lot of unrealistic stuff, that is already in the game, wich I totally like and I hope there’s even more to come. But I also hope that doesn’t mean bouncy, bouncy strafe-jumping, but something new and fresh.

(stealth6) #133

As already said Warsow is much faster, I was just trying to show an example where they use strafejumping and nice animations. (You must admit it does look pretty natural)

The Raytheon exosuit video is from 2010, welcome to 2013: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Assistive_Limb
:wink:

But I’m just trying to figure out where you draw the line? healing stations etc are all fine for you, but “bouncy” strafejumping is absurd? (strafejumping is not much different from normal jumping)

(DarkangelUK) #134

Just gonna jump back in here once again and say fun > realism. Stop using it as an excuse to make a game boring. If you don’t want to use advanced movement then you don’t have to, those that do want to can and everyone is happy. On the other end of the scale, if it’s not there, those that don’t want it are fine but those that do are alienated and probably put off from playing… I know I am. I don’t get the “I don’t want to use it so no one should get it” mindset, doesn’t make sense what so ever.

(.FROST.) #135

[QUOTE=stealth6;468943]As already said Warsow is much faster, I was just trying to show an example where they use strafejumping and nice animations. (You must admit it does look pretty natural)

The Raytheon exosuit video is from 2010, welcome to 2013: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Assistive_Limb
:wink:

But I’m just trying to figure out where you draw the line? healing stations etc are all fine for you, but “bouncy” strafejumping is absurd? (strafejumping is not much different from normal jumping)[/QUOTE]

It’s hard to figure that out and I’m not saying, that I’m actually right, since drawing the line between what fits the reality* of a game and what doesn’t is a quite subjective topic. I have only my opinion and that says; healing stations, jumping off of 5metre high bridges, shooting a guy in the head, but he wouldn’t die, throwing medi-packs and insta-reviving peeps wich should actually be torn apart by a SAW is OK, but bunny hopping looks kinda silly. That’s my opinion and I’ll defend it, but I’m definitely not saying I’m right and the others are wrong.

*THE REALITY OF THE GAME, NOT ACTUAL REALITY. I’M NOT SEEKING REALISM, I NEVER SAID THAT.

(1-800-NOTHING) #136

ok, i thought you said the tone/environment of the game was already pretty realistic - and that strafe-/bunny-jumping (all the time) wouldn’t fit that [realistic] tone.
hey, personal preference is fine. i think i’d prefer ramp jumps over ledge grabbing. :slight_smile:

(.FROST.) #137

I got your point, but you have to admit, that it’s not only about simply not using stuff. To take it to the extreme; SD could put every mechanic the comm demands in the game and everybody would be free to use the mechanics they prefer or just leave it. Sorry, but that would be just aweful.

I want a game with a coherent style from head to toe, that knows what it is, instead of game that desperately tries to please everyone end ends up beeing a mediocre hodgepodge of everything. A game with a strong personality doesn’t need to please everyone and people will learn to enjoy it for what it is, instead for the things it could possibly incorporate from other games.

Yet that DOESN’T mean, that I’m myself aren’t missing something; maybe even something “”“unrealistic”"", that would fit the game’s own reality.

(DB Genome editor) #138

I’d rather be a black sheep than just a regular sheep :cool: (just talking in general, not implying anything about anyone here :o)


Not to mention that the discussions would be pretty boring around here if everybody agreed on everything :tongue:

…and much more, like respawning for starters. All of these are gameplay compromises without which the game would be unplayable. But I don’t think we can put on the same level of “must have” the capacity to remain combat-effective after being shot and the ability to skip and hop down the street faster than a sprinting man…

Where did anyone argue for that? Does “no hopping about” automatically equals “boring”? Because that’s the only thing that Frost and I have been arguing against here…

If you’ve seen the intro scene chase in Casino Royale, “realistic” can be a pretty loose term but doesn’t have to mean “boring”. But if James Bond had caught up with that guy by strafejumping, I think most viewers would have called BS :wink:

I’m sorry but if this is the way our side of the discussion is coming across, then clearly I did not express myself correctly :frowning:

I’m against bonnyhopping because to me it looks silly in the current context of Xt. I wouldn’t care about using it, but more to the point I would also dislike to see people use it around me. For me this is just as out of place as a merc dressed in a polka-dot clown outfit with a rainbow wig. And I can understand that some people would like a clown merc, because “fun” is subjective. But for me fun is about being able to disconnect from RL and get immersed in the game, and “anomalies” like bunny-hoppers and clowns just wreck that immersion (unless of course the game is about mad hopping clowns on a killing rampage…).

(.FROST.) #139

[QUOTE=1-800-NOTHING;468946]ok, i thought you said the tone/environment of the game was already pretty realistic - and that strafe-/bunny-jumping (all the time) wouldn’t fit that [realistic] tone.
hey, personal preference is fine. i think i’d prefer ramp jumps over ledge grabbing. :)[/QUOTE]

Actually, that’s what I’ve said, but that doesn’t mean I’m a hardcore fan of realism, the complete opposite is the case, but SD already set the tone, and I already said many times before, that I’m a bit disappointed by that, but mixing it up with stuff from a completely other game with a completely different aesthetic and setting wouldn’t do it any good. I don’t know how I could possibly make myself more clear than that; since after all, it’s a foreign language, but I really encourage you to think about it before you reply/quote me the next time and accuse me of being a stubborn fun-killer and passionate realism-nazi(OK, the last one was from me:wink:)

(rookie1) #140

im not for bouncing all over the map like im seing in videos ,call it what you want, its doesn’t fit Xt …unless someone has special boots that allow to do it in a certain limit ,but not as a general normal way for everyone …imo