about business model

[kilL_888]

so, since open beta started more and more videos pop up. some more popular youtubers show the game.

for example, here’s angryjoe. a very popular youtuber. i don’t support all of his claims (especially not in this video. he acts a lot) but he has a point:

some issues have been raised though. specifically the business model. some even call the game pay2win which i personally would not agree to. but there are tendencies.

however, there are some bad things. first, the pricing. one merc costs 10$ (don’t know the euro prices) which is just too much. if you want players to give you money, give them reason to. there are games on steam that cost 10$. counter-strike go costs only like 15$. why should i buy a merc when i can spend that money on a more popular game? doesn’t make any sense, except you want to rely on your whales that happily spend hundreds and hundreds of dollars. so, reduce prices for mercs and give the option to purchase all current mercs as a pack for retail price.

another thing is the RNG. well, it’s basically gambling and that’s bad in itself. some people like it, for some it can become a real issue. it’s bad, because you can’t choose what to get. you throw your money (or ingame gold) away for the chance to get the thing you want. again, no incentive for me to pay anything if there’s no guarantee i get what i want. as a compromise, elite packs should only contain cards of mercs that you own. maybe even add a chance to get a random merc.

i like that you can craft better quality loadout cards but this actually encourages you to pay more. pay more, get more, craft more. that’s exploitation in my opinion.

now the super bad thing… you buy loadout cards for mercs that you potentially don’t even own. so, you spend X amount of cash or gold for cards that you can’t even use. wtf? you have to pay even more to get that merc or you basically “disenchant” the cards to craft a golden card or whatever.

this has to change. the game is super awesome but with this business model i really don’t want to support it. you have to value your player’s money. give them value in return and not just a chance for it. it’s still open beta and this can still be changed. i hope whoever is responsible for the monetization decisions considers this.

plz, don’t throw this game away so easily. it’s great, a lot of love has been put into it. it’s very polished, it feels great and it’s actually different than other shooters on the market. it’s fast, it’s skill based. don’t destroy it with a bad business model. don’t exploit your players. give them value and they will support you.

[Humbugsen]

there is no RNG you can buy EVERY loadout for 17k credits. RNG is for cosmetics only.
angry joe is not very smart, obviously.
the drop chances are public and instead of buying mercs he buys cosmetics and wastes his credits on cases, that you get for playing.
Some people are just too…, cant believe this guy has so many subscribers

[PinkFrog]

The elite case dropping loadouts for mercs you don’t even have unlocked is annoying, especially as the elite cases are incredibly expensive. But when you keep playing for a longer time, you will unlock all mercs at some point.

I’m unlocking a new merc roughly each week just by playing the game (and doing the missions, of course).

In my eyes, the system is very fair. You get mercs for free. You don’t need ALL mercs to have fun, every merc is fun in his/her way and can contribute to the team effort. Getting a bronze card is pretty easy. Everything above that is pretty much decoration (some loadouts are a bit better than others, so getting that one card might take a while unless you short-cut via real money).

So, if you don’t want to drop money, you still get tons of hours of high-quality gaming right out of the box.

Also, yep, this is NOT paying to win. Not at all.

[Protekt1]

I somehow ended up watching this video. At first I thought it was just funny. As time went by, I thought it was just shameful. Shameful on SD’s part? Hell no.

It was funny at first cause AJ is getting mad at getting leads. Never bothered me personally. But as time went on, and he failed to understand that like 80% of them are going to be lead, meaning that you need like 15-20 open to have like a 95% chance of getting an iron (didn’t do the math)… it started getting less funny. Also, him walking by an enemy to then be dumbfounded as to why he died… that was hilarious. Watching some console scrub get wrecked on a PC exclusive, that was hilarious too.

When it started becoming shameful is when he started making grand statements about how the game is p2w. How the offscreen commentator claimed you need to rely on RNG to get what you want. How AJ expected to get cobalts and high rarities right off the bat in his first few cases, despite being the rarest draws in a… f2p game that is clearly based on randomness. Just so much misinformation in this video, not all of it attributable to SD’s lack of care in their store design. In fact, I would argue most of it is attributed to AJ’s lack of carefulness and basic prudence in investigating or taking a moment to understand what is going on and why. And how the system works and that you can buy bronze cases for credits directly.

Does it highlight a few good lessons for SD to take away? Sure. First off, it is literally impossible to over-estimate the average consumer’s intelligence level.

But mostly, this just highlights to me that a youtuber with 2million+ subscribers can get away with making a video acting like a buffoon and try to act knowledgeable (one of his comments defending his video is just chock full of bull****) where he is clearly ignorant and took no time to understand what he is talking about or the game he is making a video on. The video also has almost zero… like 2 minutes out of a 40 minute video, game play. Disgraceful. How do people like this get popular… What a schmuck.

[Nail]

what a maroon, the boy needs a slap

[kenpokiller]

http://forums.warchest.com/showthread.php/43377-F2P-how-to-make-money-and-not-ruin-everything?p=525845#post525845
I mades this

I think with more and more incoming skins and possibly including the community the monetization is becoming fairer and fairer. (see minerals thread and spam it to the top everyday)

Elite cases being cash-only irks me though.

P2W is just all the hype nowadays, most games are blatant.

I don’t really have preference for mercs, I just shoot people and they die. Whether they buy mercs or earned mercs.

Rektson
High+++
Fear meh

[jazevec]

80% of them are going to be lead, meaning that you need like 15-20 open to have like a 95% chance of getting an iron (didn’t do the math)…

Nerd to the rescue!

Rarity	Augment Slots	Drop Chance
Lead 	1 Augment 	80% Chance
Iron 	2 Augments 	15% Chance
Bronze 	3 Augments 	3% Chance
Silver 	3 Augments 	1.5% Chance
Gold 	3 Augments 	0.4% Chance
Cobalt 	3 Augments 	0.1% Chance

Source: http://dirtybomb.nexon.net/news/2379

You can calculate this using Bernoulli Trials (with range).
t = 15 (trials)
x = 1 (at least 1 success)
s = 0.2 (probability of success - 20% chance to get a non-lead card)
Answer: the probability of getting at least 1 non-lead card from opening 15 cases is about 96% (x >= 1)
http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/binomial.aspx

In 20 trials, it would be 98%.

What’s my chance of getting at least 5 non-lead cards in 20 cases ? 37%.

But mostly, this just highlights to me that a youtuber with 2million+ subscribers can get away with making a video acting like a buffoon and try to act knowledgeable (one of his comments defending his video is just chock full of bull****) where he is clearly ignorant and took no time to understand what he is talking about or the game he is making a video on. The video also has almost zero… like 2 minutes out of a 40 minute video, game play.

He simply missed the point. Jocks will be jocks.

[adeto]

First of all, youtubers as an informative sources is one of the dumbest things there is. The guy explaining to Joe at the start is explaining things only half way aswell. Joe: ‘so tehre is Fletcher with assault rifle and knife’ other guy: ‘Yes’. Wut?! Yet to discover Fletcher with M4 rifle

Apart of that, although I disagree with some of Nexon/SD’s decisions. For example I disagree that Elite Cases cost this much for such a small advantage, if they were Gold 75% and Cobalt 25% I would think they are reasonable for the collectors among us, but for players who also care about what card combo they get(weapons+augments) they are simply a waste of money, end of discussion. Especially with cases being 4.99 for ONE CARD, it’s just ridiculous considering that cases are not trade able and the card you get is random. However the choice is still the players so if you decide to spent €100 on elite cases that’s still you weighing luck for money so after that complaining is just crying baby attitude. The percentages are shown on the site so you know your chances.

Merc prices could be lower, or at-least a LoL like system where they are €9.99 at launch and after their first free-rotation they go down in price to say €6,99. Credit ‘grind’ wise I think the prices are fine.

Loadout cards are perfectly fine apart from one thing imo. I would like to see a different case for every 6 or so mercs. Right now there is 1 case for ALL mercs, which makes the chances of getting the card you want insanely small. Getting that perfect card for the merc you want, chances for that is 0,1984126984126984% (:'D) for Elite cases the chance at the best card for a merc is 0,6944444444444444% which is still just ridiculously low for €4.99.

never opening cases again?

[jazevec]

Youtubers can be a great source of information, you just need to know how to distinguish information from brainfart.

That said, there IS one thing very wrong with the current shop - they don’t tell you what you’re paying for. It should state clearly what the chances for various rarities are.

[BioSnark]

If I could, I would change most of the things having to do with business model, progression, cosmetics, and customization.

[Amerika]

I watched the Angry Joe stream where Delrith was feeding Joe wildly inaccurate information about the game calling it the scummiest of the scum and how much of a pay2win it was. Joe even bought tons of Elite cases to make fun of the p2w because they truly believe the higher end cards were more than just cosmetics. Delrith even claimed that you get less than 100 credits per game played and didn’t even mention the missions or other bonuses you get to wrack up credits. Joe was yelling quite a bit about how he would be much better if only he got a Gold card.

It was one of the biggest disservices I’ve ever seen done to a game and it was disheartening to watch. It’s one thing to not like a game because of the gameplay but to stream it for a few hours, be fed all kinds of incorrect information, not even attempt to look at how things actually worked and get thousands of people riled up about a game was hard to watch when they probably would have loved the game if it would have been somebody who knew what they were talking about giving Joe info.

And to the OP. All you have to do is look ANYWHERE. Even on the elite cases. It’s “bling” only as in cosmetics. There isn’t any pay2win in this game. There is a basic unlock mechanic that you get via a CCG style case unopening or you can just buy the card you want with credits that you get while playing.

[kenpokiller]

It’s really simple actually

So the only arguement people can say about DB is that it’s hidden behind a little bit of grind. Which is pretty reasonable compared to the initial release.

Go back to idling CSGO 100hours per week to get 4 cases then if skins are so important. Then buy keys l0l

If you just enjoy the game and play around a bit, you’ll get whatever you need.
If you focus purely on cases/credits rather then gameplay then you are simply doing it wrong and should consider that this game is just not for you.

[adeto]

[QUOTE=jazevec;530763]Youtubers can be a great source of information, you just need to know how to distinguish information from brainfart.

That said, there IS one thing very wrong with the current shop - they don’t tell you what you’re paying for. It should state clearly what the chances for various rarities are.[/QUOTE]

The chances are explained on the main website for DB, though i agree that it should be shown somewhere within the game/in-game shop.

[Amerika]

[QUOTE=kenpokiller;530776]It’s really simple actually

So the only arguement people can say about DB is that it’s hidden behind a little bit of grind. Which is pretty reasonable compared to the initial release.

Go back to idling CSGO 100hours per week to get 4 cases then if skins are so important. Then buy keys l0l

If you just enjoy the game and play around a bit, you’ll get whatever you need.
If you focus purely on cases/credits rather then gameplay then you are simply doing it wrong and should consider that this game is just not for you.[/QUOTE]

Most people seem to forget that you have to play hours and hours in $60 games to unlock things you want. It’s a psychological tool used to keep people playing for something and invested in the game and it obviously works since almost every game does it. DB simply does the CCG variant of this which adds in some RNG but can actually allow you to get what you want faster.

[kenpokiller]

Aye it’d be great if DB went steammarket/UE4 monetization.

Or if community were to be involved eventually (TF2) all would be well

[BioSnark]

[QUOTE=kenpokiller;530776]It’s really simple actually

[/QUOTE]

Using that simplistic chart on a binary p2w state, we would find Dirty Bomb is p2w, would we not?

Personally, I don’t think a label of “pay-to-win” is binary. If there’s a cash shop for things which can alter the outcome of a game, you’ve got to make a somewhat subjective assessment of how much alteration is acceptable. For instance, a team of skyhammers and auras won’t beat a team with access to engineers and soldiers, all other things being equal. If there’s a grind alt route, you have to assess how much grind is reasonable.

Regarding the stupid video, yes, it’s quite irritating when someone in a position of influence is spreading misinformation. At least he isn’t in politics.

[Nail]

should make each merc 25,000 credits or $50, maybe then people will just play

[Mustang]

I watched this also and did the calculation of current earn rate vs expected earn rate and (even including Execusion mission bonus) there is a 30-50% shortfall at the moment.

[Protekt1]

[QUOTE=jazevec;530759]Nerd to the rescue!

Rarity	Augment Slots	Drop Chance
Lead 	1 Augment 	80% Chance
Iron 	2 Augments 	15% Chance
Bronze 	3 Augments 	3% Chance
Silver 	3 Augments 	1.5% Chance
Gold 	3 Augments 	0.4% Chance
Cobalt 	3 Augments 	0.1% Chance

Source: http://dirtybomb.nexon.net/news/2379

You can calculate this using Bernoulli Trials (with range).
t = 15 (trials)
x = 1 (at least 1 success)
s = 0.2 (probability of success - 20% chance to get a non-lead card)
Answer: the probability of getting at least 1 non-lead card from opening 15 cases is about 96% (x >= 1)
http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/binomial.aspx

In 20 trials, it would be 98%.

What’s my chance of getting at least 5 non-lead cards in 20 cases ? 37%.

He simply missed the point. Jocks will be jocks.[/QUOTE]

Looks like I was pretty close on my guesstimate. 15 cases for a 96% chance to get at least 1 non-lead. And he was like expecting gold and cobalts every time the ticker came even close to one.

[ThiagoScala]

Here is a example of a good review of the game : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0J2YYalVJk

JackFrags give the game a fair chance and not bitchy about cases like angryjoe ( he is funny sometimes but he fkup this time)

angryjoe has made a lots of mistakes in that video, i don’t know if is because was a livestream and he said things without thinking but man he can ruin the game for a lot of people and we can be a little sad, because a lot of new players will not try the game because of that video