Abilities and upgrades

(H0RSE) #101

I don’t understand why you don’t like it though, logically your not at any disadvanatge what so ever, by me selfkilling I have just 100% removed any risk from the equation and 100% guranteed that you win the firefight which also means you have to spend less time and ammo trying to physically kill me.

You’re missing a big point of why players don’t like /kill, and why it’s a cheap, exploited command. Yes, players may get upset because you “stole” their xp or kill, but it has more to do with the fact that you just wasted their (censored) time. You engage in a fight with a player, who had no chance of winning since you’re just gonna /kill, and ultimately, he could have been doing something else for his team, instead of wasting his time with you. If I knew ahead of time that you were gonna /kill, I wouldn’t have even bothered with you and would have done something else constructive for my team - let someone else deal with you, or wait till you come to us - and the fact that you wait until you’re engaged with other players to use it, just makes it that much more of a dick move.

If a players uses /kill on their own time, whether to change spawn points or switch loadouts or they got stuck on geometry, etc. that’s one thing. In instances like these, it’s a helpful command, but when a player is purposely engaging in fights just to tap-out in the middle of them, now you’re exploiting. You could have just as easily used /kill without dicking around and wasting that players time - oh, but I forgot, you’re a comp player, so everything gets weighed between advantage and disadvantage, efficiency vs inefficiency, and losing is not an option. So I guess it was just more “tactical” to go harass that player before you killed yourself.

(tokamak) #102

I frequently find myself respawning when the objective changes. But now that I can switch my set up on a command post I rather see respawning excluded altogether.

(Jamieson) #103

[QUOTE=tokamak;231140]The only way I can understand it from a competitive perspective is that it shifts the focus from tactical skills to cognitive skills. That’s what competitive players seem to want to accomplish. The idea that a player without good hand-eye coordination beats a ‘pro’ player on tactical insight alone seems like a nightmare to them.

Ragoo kind of affirms that with his signature.[/QUOTE]

Comp is about shooting because without shooting nothing else matters, does not matter how good your tactics are if 9 times out of 10 I kill you. So you are right, comp is about cognitive skills, reaction times, cooridnation etc. That doesn’t mean tactics are not important what it does mean is that tactics only play a part when two teams have similar levels of shooting skills.

In Brink though it seems that perks, ranks and weapon upgrades will be much more important.

(Qhullu) #104

i’m not a comp player and there isn’t really any specific thing comp players want, but generally speaking i’d think they want features that do not become broken or annoying at high levels of both individual and team skill, and unreachable individual skill ceiling (which is why less spread is better than more, unless the spread can be controlled through skill) because having a reachable one eventually makes it all about crossfire setups (for defenders) and movement formations (for attackers), which leads to stale gameplay.

they probably prefer simple and brilliantly designed rules where everything that is there is there because it makes the game play better and for no other reason. in the same way as chess has very simple and brilliantly designed rules which lead to very deep and complex gameplay.

when it comes to /kill, i don’t have a bind for it so i never use it obviously, but in comp play it seems to be a feature with risks and rewards that are quite well balanced in practice. as in, it has been shown to work well in respawn wave based games during the years, so in a way the reasoning for not including it needs to be very strong. it’s used very rarely in pubs anyway, so it is a feature that only really affects comp play.

(tokamak) #105

Thanks, that’s all I wanted to hear. Now I see where you’re coming from.

I personally think it’s a rather great feat if a game manages to make it possible for players to out-think an excellent aimer. We just clearly have a different taste here.

(INF3RN0) #106

@ /Kill Haters

  1. Slash killing at any time does not affect anyone but your own team (maybe the other team’s feelings) and does not significantly determine who wins/loses (though it is much more important on a smaller playing field).
  2. XP lost because of a kill out will not determine who wins the round (even though yes it is more important in Brink), you still get XP in other ways and if it is used in the wrong way it puts them at a disadvantage and not you.
  3. Slash killing allows you to quickly reset your attributes (ammo/hp) when you can’t get it any other way (bad teammates), and it saves you up to 29 seconds of doing nothing when you can be on the battlefield 99% of the time.
  4. Catching spawn waves is viewed as being extremely important in comp, but it is just as important in any kind of format (though pubbers don’t use 90% of the available game content to their advantage).
  5. It is a feature available to everyone and can be used by everyone.

I can think of a bunch of things that can be used like they weren’t intended in some manner (practically everything), but unless they do something that actually determines the outcome of the game, I am not going to rant about how they need to be changed. Its an objective based shooter and the kill count doesn’t matter. Use what the game provides and stop trying to noobify everything that confuses you.

(H4rdc0re) #107

You guys are all noobs /kill haters!!!

(H0RSE) #108

Use what the game provides and stop trying to noobify everything that confuses you.

You mean like all the new features in Brink the comp players don’t agree with?

(Jamieson) #109

[QUOTE=tokamak;231151]Thanks, that’s all I wanted to hear. Now I see where you’re coming from.

I personally think it’s a rather great feat if a game manages to make it possible for players to out-think an excellent aimer. We just clearly have a different taste here.[/QUOTE]

Glad you understand, I respect your position as well.

(INF3RN0) #110

The only things I disagreed with were issues that created imbalance, no one minds new things as long as they work. It is obvious that some people here just can’t handle being bad at games, and so they give attention to non-issues and cry out for new features that cater to their lack of ability in the current systems. Anyways your all baddies so just go cry on each others shoulders. Don’t bother responding because since you decided to answer without even trying to convince me that the above reasoning was faulty I will TROLL YOUR HOUSE DOWN :).

(tokamak) #111

I like games that are all about cognitive, from twitch reflexes in tactical shooters to long duels in more arcade-like settings. But what appeals in ET is that it’s not just that. So I keep wondering what attracts comp players to these games, is it the objective settings? Unreal Tournament has those as well. Or is that too arcade?

Maybe it’s all just shades of grey.

(Jamieson) #112

[QUOTE=tokamak;231165]I like games that are all about cognitive, from twitch reflexes in tactical shooters to long duels in more arcade-like settings. But what appeals in ET is that it’s not just that. So I keep wondering what attracts comp players to these games, is it the objective settings? Unreal Tournament has those as well. Or is that too arcade?

Maybe it’s all just shades of grey.[/QUOTE]

For me the objectives give a purpose to the killing. I used to play Quake DM and FFA, its fun but I generally find fighting over an objective is more fun although I did enjoy CFT as both teams can attack and defend. Just because I said shooting is the most important thing doesn’t mean I don’t value other things such as tactics and organization etc. In 4v4 its incredibly fun to coordinate an attack on an objective and catch the enemy in a crossfire and flank the other team etc and see your attack work out and get the objective. ETQW is an incredibly tactical game and comp unlocks the games potential at the highest level.

(tokamak) #113

Ayes, then all the perks and whatnot tend to distract from the shoot-outs indeed.

Still not my cup of tea, even in obviously gun-based shooters I really like it when I can outwit the enemy by other means, by incapacitating them through smoke, flashbangs or tear gas. That oldie ‘no one lives forever’ turned incapicating your enemy into an art. They even had sleep gas!

I’m digressing. My shooting skills aren’t that bad, but they only function for me to execute my plans well. With other words, for you the objectives enhance the shooting, while for me the shooting is but a necessity to do what I want.

Still, the satisfaction of nailing a few headshots doesn’t even come close of the feeling you get when you’re actually outsmarting someone, by letting that person or a group of people play your game and fall in your trap. That’s such a greater sense of achievement to me.

(DarkangelUK) #114

Removing kill will NOT be detrimental to the gameplay, again RE: Quake Live… and it was removed exactly for the cheesy reasons it’ll be used for in Brink. The excuses made here are just mirroring the ones made there, i.e. nothing valid.

(Ragoo) #115

[QUOTE=tokamak;231140]
The only way I can understand it from a competitive perspective is that it shifts the focus from tactical skills to cognitive skills. That’s what competitive players seem to want to accomplish. The idea that a player without good hand-eye coordination beats a ‘pro’ player on tactical insight alone seems like a nightmare to them.

Ragoo kind of affirms that with his signature.[/QUOTE]

Wait, what? I’m not very good at aiming (ok, perhaps better than the average pub player I play against) and I constantly try to find ways to use other things to my advantage. So I’m definitely not all about aiming. I don’t even see any shame in killing someone with a flyer drone from just around the corner, because I couldn’t kill him in a gunfight :stuck_out_tongue:

I love to outsmart people and I also love it when people outsmart me and I can get a glimpse of the beauty that a game with the tactical depth of ET:QW can have :slight_smile:

As I said some days ago, I can totally understand why you want the characters to be locked during the match, so people have to be innovative and such. I love innovative play but as I said, it’s only cool if you are not forced to be innovative but rather be innovative because it’s your style of playing the game.
In the long run we will see the most innovative play if we give the players the most (balanced) options we can, so they can use them for tactical advantage. Being able to change characters during the match would give the players sooo much more options for tactics, and so would the /kill command.

And I’m not a comp player, I just love to watch the comp community play, it’s just so inspiring and fun to watch high level gaming :slight_smile:

(and spread that you can’t control sucks, because it’s about luck. Luck sucks, only skill - aiming, tactics and team coordination - should decide the outcome of a game, not luck)

edit: What are those ‘cheesy’ things you can use /kill for? I can only think of reasonable things…

(tokamak) #116

Sorry, I had the wrong person in mind. Forget it :smiley:

(DarkangelUK) #117

[QUOTE=Ragoo;231176]
edit: What are those ‘cheesy’ things you can use /kill for? I can only think of reasonable things…[/QUOTE]

They have already been mentioned, maybe you missed a few posts.

I’ve made my view known on this subject and have take on board other peoples views… I think my interest has peaked so i’ll leave it at that. I can see the appeal of /kill, and that appeal is no consequences and all gain to the action… you get full ammo, hp, relocation to safety and deny an interrogation… too easy. I’ll compromise with Join next spawn wave and die on 0, or a Cyanide Pill perk that uses up one of your perk slots, but instant death at a button press is a no no.

(INF3RN0) #118

I opt for this. No need to trash it when there are other ways to deal with it. I still don’t think that the original way was bad, but this method would rule out the only remotely “cheesy” part of people slash killing on people that rage much too easily. I hope that something like that makes it into Brink otherwise I will get really frustrated when I can’t find anyone to kill me at the right time… I also thought that there would still be respawning in Brink in the first place, but gosh I just never know what to expect.

(MILFandCookies) #119

The only way I can understand it from a competitive perspective is that it shifts the focus from tactical skills to cognitive skills. That’s what competitive players seem to want to accomplish. The idea that a player without good hand-eye coordination beats a ‘pro’ player on tactical insight alone seems like a nightmare to them.

There is no focus, only what is appropriate for that particular moment in the game.

There were many teams in ETQW that designed strategies, however some of these teams would have an over reliance on these strategies because they lacked the skill in other areas. That is not to say, that highly skilled teams do not plan ahead, and think from a tactical level. They do what is appropriate for each game, each moment.

The knowledge of the opposing teams capabilities, and the ability to recognise that a team is gaining/losing confidence are just a couple of things that some comp players use throughout a game to their advantage.
If teams were inclined to stack their team with medics, you would counter that by nailing and gibbing their objective players. Another way of countering that is by running long distance shooters, so that they are forced out of their medic spam comfort zone, and prompts them to do the same. That plays into your favor when you know for a fact, they arent great at that skill.

The worst thing you could be known for in etqw, was being one dimensional - because its very easy to exploit, when the other team is filled with players who are brilliant at every role.

So my point is - there are times in game, where tactics are important, and other times where its just you and the enemy in the room and you need to take him out, or youve loss the game. If you need to really think in THAT moment - youre dead, and its game over.

(tokamak) #120

Why would you get frustrated when you don’t get killed at the right time? Why would you even want to get killed in Brink?