A question about lag

(crazyfoolish) #1

Hi

As is evident from my question i know absolutely nothing about internet connections in games.

My question is, is lag comparative or does it stay the same.

For example if i was playing a game and EVERYBODY had a slow internet connection would there be no lag? Or would everybody be lagging.

Also, is there a way of downgrading people with outrageosly fast internet so that their internet speed is average thereby creating a more enjoyable and fair game?

Thanks and sorry for my uninformed question.

(darthmob) #2

There is no such thing as outrageously fast internet! If someones connection sucks it’s bad for everyone because he can’t hit the others and the others can’t hit him. Punishing players for having a decent internet connection doesn’t make sense at all.

I’m sure there’s plenty of information on the net on how those things work. If you are really interested in it you can search on google for keywords like lag, ping, peer-to-peer, dedicated servers and response times. Should be a good start.

(digibob) #3

This is not true! Others can hit him just fine (in any sensible game anyway :P), only the person with the bad connection should suffer.

(DarkangelUK) #4

Must be talking about more recent games. The likes of Quake Live, a lagger warps like hell and is impossible to hit, hits don’t register, does that matrix crap where he’s one place one sec then suddenly appears in another place.

(tokamak) #5

SH has tis problem as well. But yeah never encountered it in ETQW.

(digibob) #6

Quake 3 deals with client updates in a rather odd way, in that they are updated outside of the main world update phase (unless you have g_synchronousclients turned on). This is why you can get the crazy warping you are talking about. I do not consider this sensible behaviour!

(BioSnark) #7

Nice topic. Hopefully the people in Quake Wars who always complain about high ping players will read it.

Speaking of quake 3…, does anyone know how left 4 dead’s netcodingz works? I can play that game with a ping of 200 - 400 and still hit every zombie I aim at with a sniper even if they die a second later and nowhere near where they were when I shot them. It’s the one online game I don’t have to stop ‘dling geh pr0nz’ for… Does the server just let its clients decide when they’ve hit a zombie?

(AnthonyDa) #8

[quote=BioSnark;226639]
Speaking of quake 3…, does anyone know how left 4 dead’s netcodingz works? I can play that game with a ping of 200 - 400 and still hit every zombie I aim at with a sniper even if they die a second later and nowhere near where they were when I shot them. It’s the one online game I don’t have to stop ‘dling geh pr0nz’ for… Does the server just let its clients decide when they’ve hit a zombie?[/quote]
Zombie are really slow, so the ping does a little difference.
But source engine is far from perfect when it comes about lag&network issues. For example, you can shot someone trying to hide behind a wall like if you have curved bullet or sth, but also you’ll get a lot of “no-hit”, you can see that a lot with the hunters in L4D (who have a great speed when jumping).
Quick example : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QNje3Q4xU8

(Senethro) #9

Thats lag compensation, happens in most modern games, and is a good thing.

(AnthonyDa) #10

And it shouldn’t work like that.
It should be “what I shot at hits”, not “what I missed hits”, and it happens way to much in Source Engine games.

(Voxie) #11

Here’s some information about the networking framework the Source Engine uses, Anthony. Hopefully that’ll get rid of the misconceptions you have about lag compensation and netcode in general.

(digibob) #12

http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Latency_Compensating_Methods_in_Client/Server_In-game_Protocol_Design_and_Optimization

is also a pretty good doc

(INF3RN0) #13

I can’t wait to suffer :)! Also in most cases a high pinger will appear to be in one place when he is actually in another (as a high pinger myself), but this seems to be the same for both players. Depending on how high the ping is, it can usually look like they are moon walking in one spot then instantly jump forward and begin shooting or start the moonwalk once again. A lot of the time though, I would blame server hosts for much of the lag that happens in a game.

(crazyfoolish) #14

hmm i have pretty slow internet because i live in New Zealand but it works fine for the likes of cod. Hopefully it will be ok. I think the main source of lag in tf2 seems to be the host.

(LyndonL) #15

ARghhhhhhhhh!#!@#@!% KIWI! :wink:

Host lag is generally the pc not the connection. Depending on the game it’s usually only 10k/s up and down per player… 16 players = 160 up/down … not too much!

(3Suns) #16

digibob, I don’t know if you are talking PC only here, but from my experience with 360 Halo and Gears of War it sure seems like what darthmob said is true.

Is Splash Damage working on a system for Brink 360 that is going to change this experience? I have just come to take it as one of the evils of gaming (especially since I am always gaming with the highest ping from Japan).

Hereis an article on how Bungie has tried to deal with latency and near simultaneous hit detection for Halo 3.

Note: Admittedly, with Gears of War 1 and 2, it is also obvious that they closer you are to the PVP host, the “more powerful and accurate” your weapons become. UE3 has the worst network coding out there - for Medal of Honor, EA dumped that sh!t and picked up DICE’s Frostbite engine for MP - they are actually developing a single game using two different engines! LMAO At E3 last year, I had my friend suggest to Epic that they simply nerf the host weapons damage by 25 to 50 percent. Host just runs around killing everything, and they can’t fix it. Gears 3 will be equally busted. Have to wait until UE4.

Note 2: The pressure isn’t really on, imo, for Splash Damage to release a perfect Brink. The joy of innovation will outweigh the agony of brokenness. The sequel, on the other hand, if there ever will be one, will have no such margin for error.

(digibob) #17

[QUOTE=3Suns;226804]digibob, I don’t know if you are talking PC only here, but from my experience with 360 Halo and Gears of War it sure seems like what darthmob said is true.
[/QUOTE]

Note my qualifier on ‘sensible game’. Any game where the ping of another user makes them harder to hit is broken in my opinion.

(Nail) #18

sensible games have dedicated servers

(3Suns) #19

From your mouth to heaven! You have no idea how relieving it is to hear someone on a development team (in ANY capacity, let alone Senior Programmer) say that.

I noticed that you linked to a Valve article. Funny that in my GAP profiles, I gave both Valve’s L4D and DICE’s B:BC2 minimal scores for importance of quality connection because my observation was that one dude with a crappy connection didn’t have the effect of ruining it for everyone. Whereas those other games I listed, it does. I am seeing patterns in the chaos!

I like the way Splash Damage thinks. I give you a tentative 10/10 for Brink based on attitude alone.

(Reanimator) #20

Splash Damage has to be my favorite studio based just off the feedback we receive almost DAILY. Now if Brink turns out to be what they promised and more I will be a very loyal fan indeed :).