Why would you ever base a tier list off of how bad players perform with them?[/quote]
Because even worst possible merc with aimbot (perfect aiming skill) would kill everything in sight regardless of any lists[/quote]
So if you were to make a tierlist, you would be like “hmm… Fragger is strong, but if he turns around and throws the frag grenade at his own team, that could be bad. Besides, just get an aimbot and you don’t need a tierlist”
Why would you ever base a tier list off of how bad players perform with them?[/quote]
Because even worst possible merc with aimbot (perfect aiming skill) would kill everything in sight regardless of any lists[/quote]
So if you were to make a tierlist, you would be like “hmm… Fragger is strong, but if he turns around and throws the frag grenade at his own team, that could be bad. Besides, just get an aimbot and you don’t need a tierlist”[/quote]
His point was that to prove something is op or broken he would to demonstrably prove it.
Honestly, given what I am hearing, I would argue the Grandeur only needs range and fall off added, since the maps themselves are pretty unbalanced. The sightlines are insane, and ranged weapons like Sniper Rifles can absolutely dominate.
I don’t mind the Grandeur being tweaked, like I said before, fall off and headshot damage nerf, but I don’t think it’s overpowered or broken cause I can perform equally as well with other guns, I would consider it so if I were able to consistently perform better with it overall compared to anything else in the game.
This is completely the point. FELIX and MOA do 75+ on a body shot which means most mercs that have been hit once or twice by most anything else will die to a single body shot. Grandeur has to hit twice to match and either under active fire from guns with a higher DPS, or from far away with no scope to help. The aim-punch spread on the gun is insane so you better pray you don’t get hit first.
It’s really not a good gun. The BLSHLOK is objectively better at killing simply because it’s a semi-auto Grandeur, unless of course you’re a headshot god.
There’s no sense in nerfing a weapon because a niche amount of players are good at aiming.
That’s the point of sniper rifles. If you headshot, you win. This is why countersnipers are a thing and required in competitive matches. But yeah, in such a small team of 5, it feels like an annoying waste of a player.
Just more reasons why we need to bump Ranked up to 6v6
[quote=“bgyoshi;c-225993”]The aim-punch spread on the gun is insane so you better pray you don’t get hit first.
It’s really not a good gun. The BLSHLOK is objectively better at killing simply because it’s a semi-auto Grandeur, unless of course you’re a headshot god.
There’s no sense in nerfing a weapon because a niche amount of players are good at aiming[/quote]
This is all false, you don’t have to be particularly good at aiming to drop people with the Grandeur. Even if you mash mouse1 you still have 3 near pinpoint accurate shots and the 4th is still pretty reliable as well. Spamming this weapon is perfectly viable and the rate at which it kills people is totally insane even if you don’t consistently get headshots. Combine all that with how broken Redeye is and you’ve got one of the lamest combinations in the game.
I’d like the damage to be dropped down to 38-39 or accuracy when moving (not standing) to be lower. Then put good sights on it so that you have to trade movement for accuracy and have an actual downside to make up for the crazy fragging power.
I can video how wrong you are if you want. Lots of people whine from hackers or players that are just simply good at aiming. The aim punch and recoil on this is insane, just like all sniper rifles.
The only thing dropping body shot damage by 2 points will do is affect full HP mercs. The only merc that dies to 2 body shots is Aura, 3 body shots kills anyone between 90 and 120, and everyone else takes more, and this would bump the shots needed to 3 at minimum. In other words, double tap body shot then spam pistol, hardly a change. This is assuming no healing is happening either. Most mercs, though, have already been softened by explosives or teammate fire, so really you’re not adding more shots, as your 3 shot range goes from 81 - 120 to 77 - 114 which most players will still fall within.
Putting sights on it and killing movement accuracy just makes it a worse version of the PDP. There’s literally no point in doing that.
This is all false, you don’t have to be particularly good at aiming to drop people with the Grandeur.
thats very subjective.
im a decent shot myself but i still prefer dreiss since it has 20 rnds and shoot faster because i cant aim good enough to land medium-close range shots with grandeur.
i could also say that a baby could use rhino minigun and get to make frag video with sick ass music, but that is not the case since there are things to consider such as spin up time, cooldown, movement speed.
same thing with grandeur.
[quote=“bgyoshi;c-226006”]
I can video how wrong you are if you want. Lots of people whine from hackers or players that are just simply good at aiming. The aim punch and recoil on this is insane, just like all sniper rifles.[/quote]
I say that this weapon is OP out of actual experience in competitive environments. It’s not about “hackers or good aimers”, it’s about Redeye and the Grandeur being OP because of observable results they have in competitive matches. Single-shot weapons are just easier to hit with, it’s why everyone and their dog has higher accuracy with such weapons than with automatics.
Aimpunch affects everyone no matter the weapon they’re using, and recoil on the Grandeur simply isn’t insane at all, plus even if it was there would always be time to readjust. The PDP has really strong recoil but it’s still easy to control.
Taking an extra shot or going through the full animation of drawing your secondary will actually add quite a bit of time. The main problem with the Grandeur is the stupidly short TTK that it has, at any given range. If someone has already been damaged by crossfire then it has no impact in the discussion of this weapon in itself, any other gun will have an easy time in a 2v1 scenario, this is not how individual weapon balance should be approached.
Not really as it would still have the possibility of hipfire, and non-sniper scope sights.
Close-medium aiming is the easiest thing with this weapon. Larger targets taking up a bigger portion of your screen, and the ease of hitting a single shot at a time if you have to readjust because they are close enough to go around or just went behind cover. It’s kind of similar to how burst rifles perform so well at close-mid range.
[quote=“GatoCommodore;c-226012”]i could also say that a baby could use rhino minigun and get to make frag video with sick ass music, but that is not the case since there are things to consider such as spin up time, cooldown, movement speed.
same thing with grandeur.[/quote]
Except Rhino has never been a case of something that dominates at high level play unlike Redeye/snipers have been for a long time.
No offense guys, but Dawnlazy knows what he is talking about. I’ve been playing Grandeur Redeye since 2015, and have seen many iterations of the weapon.
From the moment the damage was upped to 40hp (rate of fire was decreased, but that actually increased average accuracy), the weapon became stupidly easy to use. They kept buffing the gun ever since
At close range it works like an auto shotgun, at mid range you can score body/head potshots and switch to ADS to finish them off with the second,third shot, at long range you can go ADS and spam PDP level of insanity.
The only real weakness this gun has is slightly reduced mobility, as firing shots midair/immediately after jump will reck your aim completely.
Yeah, the effective TTK (as in the TTK assuming perfect aim but factoring in spread and damage drop off) on the grandeur is really good, and unlike AR’s and SMG’s it stays good at all ranges. It’s not too hard for other weapons to compete with it at point blank range, but once you get to mid and long range that lack of damage drop off really makes a difference. That plus his ability is very powerful and basically forces people to waste valuable aoe resources and time to avoid it.
@Szakalot With the Rhino + heal station thing, keep in mind this was a couple years ago and I wasn’t talking about unorganized pubs where people put stations in exposed spots and where rhino + aura has never been a problem. I’m talking about scrims and matches against the best NA and EU teams. It wasn’t a matter of getting good at destroying the stations or having the sense to flank, because it simply wasn’t possible with the mercs that were available to destroy the healing stations from anywhere remotely safe on certain maps (most notably bridge, underground and parts of terminal), so all you really could do was take whichever route wasn’t occupied by Rhino and try to do a really good execute without getting flanked.
With the current merc pool, though, I can imagine that this is nowhere near as big of a problem as it used to be.
This actually has nothing to do with the ease of aiming and is entirely the effect of how the guns are used. People hold down and fire or burst fire automatic weapons and try to track a player. With bullet spread and aim punching it’s unlikely all bullets will hit, but you can score 3 hits in a row, then miss 2, then hit one, then miss 2, then hit 4, etc, hence why automatic weapons have lower hit damage. Single-shot weapons are only fired when the person aligns their sight so there is less wasted ammo.
If you switched an autoweapon to single-shot firing mode and used it like a shotgun, your aim would increase with it considerably as well. You would never get a kill due to the insanely low dps, but your accuracy would skyrocket.
Compared to shotguns and automatic weapons, yes it is. Just like all sniper rifles.
But this makes all of the difference. You can’t compare weapons in a vacuum. The vacuum is just for observing base functionality, but it’s not practicable. It’s unlikely you’ll only encounter full HP mercs especially when you’re playing in a team environment where you aren’t the only one engaging the enemy. You have to consider crossfire factors, always.
But here’s the core of the problem with your arguments, and it’s the same problem many people have.
Competitive matches are a bad factor to judge weapon balance by, because you’re talking about a niche environment with a small group of players good enough to succeed at that level. If you even somehow managed to perfectly balance every gun ever at high level play, everyone below that level would feel severely underpowered. Everything would feel weak and no player could feel like they can use some weapons better than others, because all weapons would function precisely the same and the only thing that would matter is your aim.
Not to mention DB has the double problem of competitive and pub environments being COMPLETELY unrelated. 7v7 strategy will never work in 5v5, and 5v5 strategy will never work in 7v7, which is made triple bad by the sheer fact that FF exists in one environment and not the other.
If your goal is to make the 75 players that can compete at a high level have perfect balance, you will completely eliminate shotguns and snipers from pubs, and the game will turn into grenades and assault weapons only. It will go stale in minutes and nobody can get excited about any class, as all of their weapons will feel identical in effect.
Games should be balanced to the bulk of its player base, NOT to the top 1% of players.
[quote=“bgyoshi;c-226024”]
Competitive matches are a bad factor to judge weapon balance by, because you’re talking about a niche environment with a small group of players good enough to succeed at that level. If you even somehow managed to perfectly balance every gun ever at high level play, everyone below that level would feel severely underpowered. Everything would feel weak and no player could feel like they can use some weapons better than others, because all weapons would function precisely the same and the only thing that would matter is your aim.
Not to mention DB has the double problem of competitive and pub environments being COMPLETELY unrelated. 7v7 strategy will never work in 5v5, and 5v5 strategy will never work in 7v7, which is made triple bad by the sheer fact that FF exists in one environment and not the other.
If your goal is to make the 75 players that can compete at a high level have perfect balance, you will completely eliminate shotguns and snipers from pubs, and the game will turn into grenades and assault weapons only. It will go stale in minutes and nobody can get excited about any class, as all of their weapons will feel identical in effect.
Games should be balanced to the bulk of its player base, NOT to the top 1% of players.[/quote]
Meh, you’re making up stuff as you go along.
Guns can be balanced and not same-y. E.g. M4 can be balanced against the shotguns, even though both weapons have different pros/cons, different playstyles, etc. Similarly, guns can be balanced at high level play, and still be interesting for casuals. If everything feels weak, nothing is.
7v7 strategy vs. 5v5 strategy has nothing to do with weapon balance. This concerns more to abilities/objectives (e.g. its harder to push the same EV with 3 fire supports on the enemy team, even if you have more energies), and not merc balance. Redeye/grandeur will be just as OP and obligatory pick in 7v7 as he will in 5v5 (probably more so, due to best spotting ability in the game).
And in the end, balance on pubs is of little importance, considering how wide the skill curve is on any given server; with good players kicking ass whatever they use, and poor players getting rekt whatever they use.
It has everything to do with that actually, since you said that
Ergo implying that the Grandeur is “only good if you can aim”. Well guess what, any weapon works like that. The Grandeur is overpowered in the sense that it gives an unfair advantage regardless of your aim.
Yes but then you have to consider how the Grandeur is both easy to aim with and has a considerably short TTK.
I never feel the Grandeur kicking my crosshair way off mark after firing, compared especially to the PDP. The recoil on it is mostly vertical anyway which is the easiest to control.
This is the only realistic way to compare weapons. No one is ever going to say “hmm this weapon is especially good when I’m fighting in a group of 3 vs 1 guy and also happen to be behind them!”
No.
The only legitimate way to balance is through a competitive focus, because it is the sole environment in which you have several matches with a narrow spread of skill level, and as such the only way to have actually balanced matches. Balancing for competitive play has the direct effect of helping balance at all other levels because of that, it makes matchups at all skill levels across the board become more balanced. You can’t ever hope to balance for pubs because there is no consistency in skill level.
For instance, fast squishy mercs like Proxy become more powerful in the hands of a more skilled player in pubs simply because most people have poor map awareness and you can constantly flank them for basically the whole match, whereas a merc like Fragger might not work as well, since he has to constantly hunt for ammo and is too slow to both do that and catch enemies around the map off guard with precise timing. Yet in a competitive match a squishy merc like Proxy can be nigh useless whilst Fragger is used 90% of the time.
[quote=“Szakalot;c-226020”]
From the moment the damage was upped to 40hp (rate of fire was decreased, but that actually increased average accuracy), the weapon became stupidly easy to use. They kept buffing the gun ever since[/quote]
The weapon always had 40 damage per shot since it was introduced with the redeye patch.
The first balance change the grandeur got was a 15% reduced vertical recoil in the What the Dickens Update on 2017-12-16.
Still agree with everything you/dawnlazy said tho, weapon is stupidly overpowered.
[quote=“hjfarnsworth;c-226030”][quote=“Szakalot;c-226020”]
From the moment the damage was upped to 40hp (rate of fire was decreased, but that actually increased average accuracy), the weapon became stupidly easy to use. They kept buffing the gun ever since[/quote]
The weapon always had 40 damage per shot since it was introduced with the redeye patch.
The first balance change the grandeur got was a 15% reduced vertical recoil in the What the Dickens Update on 2017-12-16.
Still agree with everything you/dawnlazy said tho, weapon is stupidly overpowered.
[/quote]
It was always 40 for me as well, but he might be talking about closed beta Grandeur? I didn’t play back then but the weapon seems quite different from this video:
i feel that everytime weapons/merc gets nerfed, theres a weapon/merc that going to be in the nerf spotlight again, even though that weapon/merc wasnt as broken as people think
then in the end every weapon/merc will feel weak and feels the same because there are no difference among weapons/merc
there will be a time where we need to draw the line or change the meta so this doesnt happen because by that time this happen, people wont be playing this game anymore because how boring the choices are
@GatoCommodore this is a good point, however if balance is poor meta gets very stale, which is not good for the game’s longevity.
indeed, closed-beta grandeur was considerably different, similar DPS, lower damage (in the 30s i think), INSANE spread and dreiss level RoF.
it was quite hilarious: you could fire an entire clip at close range and miss all the shots, only to get a multikill on your second clip. Redeye in smoke was like a sea monster, spamming random shots/tentacles in all directions
I feel tons of regret coming from this post
Also bias but still
lol
I think… objectively, that if this list were based off of two things: [list=1]
[] You are solo queuing in ranked matches,
[] and you have no dependability on your team to do anything right (including picking a medic)
[/list] Then this list is actually… pretty accurate for ranked matches. I’d personally move Fragger down just a smidge, Nader up. And push Sparks and Sawbonez down the list quite a bit (since lack of communication kills these two mercs) And push Thunder up a smidge as well since his utility in 1v1s is insane. Also… Phantom IF Solo queuing… would NOT be at the bottom, as he is hands down the best counter to a healing station, proxy, and Fletcher right now… Not sure where he’d be at… but not at the bottom. Phoenix deserves his number one spot under these conditions and wins it easily in my book. But in different settings, he just cannot survive, and is not as durable and respected when there are two medics on a team. (he heals far less, and he will probably be dancing between two spots of his team…)
Now if you actually mean competitive as the majority of the forum users view and define it: “as in DBN standards - a structured team with mics, dedicated communication, and usually two medic players ENFORCED.” Then this list is broken and you deserve every disagree you got. Even IF it is your opinion.
You know what’s missing? DB’s global stats.
Why not let public know them, especially on the official website, regarding things like most played mercs/weapons/maps etc.?