A game of snipers

(bgyoshi) #61

That would be correct, but (using your comparison) when your concern is “I’m hungry because I refuse to eat the food in front of me!” then yes I absolutely get to shut down that argument. Eat your damn food, you being hungry is your own fault. And I’ll most ESPECIALLY point out starving people in Africa, starving because they don’t have a choice. You have every opportunity to avoid all of your concerns with sniper, so take them instead of refusing to change and demanding the game change to suit the way you want to play. If you have to run a knife across your skin, use the dull side so you don’t get cut, instead of demanding that someone else dulls the sharp side first so you can use that one instead.

All of player’s -LEGITIMATE- concerns with sniper can be summed up right here:

  • Sniper is hard to play and relatively worthless in the hands of someone who isn’t highly skilled
  • Ranked tournaments have highly skilled players and allowing snipers just dumbs down the meta

The fix for all player concerns with sniper:

  • Allow merc limits and bans in Ranked and custom servers

Done. No need to change sniper in the slightest.

(DarkangelUK) #62

You took the example too literal and rolled with that for some bizarre reason rather than addressing the main concerns (mostly covered by lifeup), snipers are running the experience and merc limits aren’t an option to fix it. And once again, using “the are other problems” to dismiss those concerns is just obtuse

(Your worst knifemare.) #63

Similar to how Sparps was, yet for the same reasons she’s been nerfed while snipers haven’t.

(bgyoshi) #64

Fine I’ll address them by quoting my own quotes.

Absolutely ignorable since the poster seems confused on whether they want fast TTK team play or low TTK tracking skill. DB has always been about fast TTK team play and considering average TTK is well under .5 seconds that’s more than reasonable for DB’s vision, and considering there are a minimum 5 classes that counter a sniper I’d hardly say this is leaning to RPS counter style play. Next

Not a sniper problem in the slightest. Complaining that snipers can magically go from one side of the map to the other with magic speed because they spotted a player or two far away is a childish complaint, period. But it has some validity in 5v5 since you absolutely cannot split up in that mode. That’s a problem with low player count games and that issue is 100% solved in 6v6. Not a sniper problem. Allow teams to have enough players to actually split up and push multiple lanes at once and suddenly snipers aren’t apparently covering 2 or 3 lanes all at once.

Did I miss something?

I’m sure everyone agrees that snipers are worse when they can also throw health packs, snipe while running at full speed, and revive players across the map with their main gun, all in one class. In the war of “buff snipers to match Sparks” and “nerf Sparks to be a medic”, Sparks loses every time.

It would be obtuse if the solution to your problems wasn’t right in front of you. Again, you can solve your complaints by playing smarter. There are other problems that aren’t fixed by playing smarter, and those should be fixed first. The point is to direct your frustration to those real problems that have no solution, instead of these minor problems that have a solution already.

(DarkangelUK) #65

Ok so your rebuttal simply was “its not” or just dont get shot, I think you failed to understand just about every point mentioned., your simplistic view of ‘fixing’ just isnt grounded in reality of how the game actually plays.

(bgyoshi) #66

…I mean, yeah. There really isn’t anything else.

It’s like a handful of players are complaining that 2 + 2 = 5. It doesn’t, it equals 4.

  • Sniper has no counters except another sniper.

…That’s not true, sniper has many counters.

  • Snipers can watch 3 lanes all at once

…That’s not true, they can only watch one.

  • Sniper’s OHK is ridiculous and the only class with one

…That’s not true, there are many classes with OHK abilities that are far easier to use

  • Snipers aren’t fun

…That’s not true, it’s a completely subjective opinion

  • Snipers ruin the meta

…That’s not a sniper issue, because they don’t ruin anything above 5v5

  • This game makes you stand still too much which makes snipers too strong

…That’s not true, you choose to stand still in bad places or without your team covering you.

  • This game is supposed to be about tracking gunplay not shotguns and snipers

…That’s not true, there are tons of abilities and explosives that completely negate gunplay

  • Snipers are forcing the game into RPS counter-play instead of team play

…That’s not true, there are many classes and weapons that counter sniper.

  • It’s not fun for me

…That sucks, also a completely subjective opinion

So yes, my general response of “it’s not” is entirely accurate and justified. The rebuttal for untruths is simply the truth.

Likewise, people still fail to grasp that a person’s complaint could be entirely justified in 5v5, and completely irrelevant in 7v7. Similarly, some people’s complaints are justified in 7v7, but not in 5v5. But people never take this into consideration. They just see a problem in their preferred mode/team size and assume it’s universal.

I already made plenty of leeway to admit that not only are snipers very strong in the hands of good players, but that competitive not only has mostly strong players, but also such small team sizes that a sniper CAN be overly effective IN THAT MODE. But nobody else has said that or mentioned that their experience comes from 5v5. But since Ranked is -gone-, that is no longer valid or necessary. And since snipers are CONSIDERABLY weaker in 6v6 and 7v7, then said complaint is not justified.

And likewise, giving players that do not like to play with snipers the ability to limit or ban those mercs from their servers IS a reasonable fix for the issue. I’ll say it again; there are no problems with snipers, only a player’s personal experience of the game with snipers in it. If you don’t want to play with snipers then it is not unreasonable to give the players that run their own servers the option to ban sniper classes and advertise it.

Tell me more about the reality of how this game plays, I’m super interested.

I also realize there may be some need for context as to why I care so much.

I’ve played Vassili for many many hours, as well as all the other sniper classes. I know his/their strengths and weaknesses and ways to deal with them from my experience playing those classes. I know there isn’t a problem with snipers here. And it’s beyond frustrating to see, month after month, the same 3 or 4 people complaining about a class that isn’t broken and doesn’t need fixing. I’m tired of seeing “veterans” with 1200 hours whining about snipers when new players are constantly coming into the forums asking “where’s this feature it would be nice” or “here’s a suggestion to make this better” and all of them suggesting ideas that the community has been fighting for for years.

We need custom servers. We’re FINALLY getting them
We need merc limiting and banning.
We need a CMM that actually works well and is enticing to play
We need a consistent SINGULAR dev supported team size. 8v8 is gone, 5v5 is temporarily gone, but we’re still running on 6v6 and 7v7 and you just can’t balance around two entirely different team/play mechanics.
We need fewer explosive mercs and a generally weakened effectiveness of explosives
We need to remove the high amount of RNG with items and reward players more

All of these issues are a much higher priority than snipers. I’m sick of people shifting the dev’s attention to non-issues just because they’re tired of a thing after a billion hours of game play.

Snipers aren’t causing new players to quit. People don’t stick with the game because it’s missing core features that most every FPS has today. People can’t easily team up together. People hate getting quick-joined into a broken match. People hate the fall off of rewards. People hate certain classes (SNIPER RIGHT??) and have no way to find a community to play without that class. People hate explosives spam and have no way to find a community to play explosives limited. People want a Ranked that’s more focused on personal performance. People want a hell of a lot of things, and “fix sniper” is the minority complaint. So stop it, and help us improve the game features first.

(DarkangelUK) #67

Yes no sorry I skipped all of that, I’ve been here long enough to know of the problems this game faces and then some, but your last part is just plain narrow minded, yes snipers do indeed cause new players to quit, not all, but definitely some, its part of a long list that do and issue that needs resolved just like the rest. Fix sniper has been in discussions for years, you just dont know it because you’ve spent your time in an echo chamber on the old nexon forums. Stop trying to shut other people, its just ignorant and completely unhelpful.

(bgyoshi) #68

Heard loud and clear no point in trying to talk to people that don’t care. Enjoy

(bgyoshi) #69

Seriously, you don’t need to reply. I understand.

(DarkangelUK) #70

I’d say it is quite, not stupid, we’ll got with ‘misguided’ to come into a sniper discussion and tell everyone they’re wrong and say we should caring about the thing you care about rather than the thing you don’t, its just an ignorant way to conduct a discussion and Im not sure why you’re surprised at the pushback you got for it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

(bgyoshi) #71

You really wouldn’t know anyway, you skipped what I said. You also haven’t made a single response that isn’t “well that’s a stupid/ignorant/narrow minded/other-synonym-for-dumb thing to say”

It’s a discussion. You lay out your points, you counter someone else’s points, and you agree where points match. You gave none of that and I get it. You don’t care, you just want snipers to go away.

Really, I get it. Stop responding. I’m untracking the thread. It’s not a discussion anymore, it’s me laying out an argument and you responding with “man that’s stupid.”


(DarkangelUK) #72

I never used the word stupid at all, you did several times. You didn’t lay a counter out, you blamed the player at every step that basically says ‘there is no problem, you’re wrong’. I also skimmed a list I knew had no relevance to the discussion, a list of things that no one has ever said isn’t an issue, you’re using to dismiss a discussion about snipers, in a discussion about snipers…

i mean really, just really. Ok fine, there is no problem with explosive spam, just a players personal experience of the game with explosives in it… there we go, you’re not allowed to counter anymore because now its your problem and not the games.

Think I’ll use that one with everything you bring up so your points can be dismissed on a whim


(Mr.Cuddlesworth) #73

Yes explosives are fine plz leave my skill compensator out of this :nadurr:

(neks) #74

I do believe that adding more sway like covert ops lvl 1 in ET would help. That 15 year old implementation is near perfect. Even scoped, the more you move the more sway you get.
You don’t have to make recons to be as viable as all the other class. Their role in the fight is a bonus, not a necessity. Like covert ops in ET.

With the added sway it would guarantee the recon has to be mostly static for a few seconds before shooting unless you take a chance.
It would force the sniper to stay far unless he wants to be a plant in the middle of the battle field.

It would also prevent quick flick shots. Currently scopes are too stable. You should be able to fire shot after shot unless it does significantly less damage.

I’ve held feedback since the closed beta but this is one of the 2 issues that I think are bad for the game. The other one is front facing melee damage (…) but it’s another topic.

(AlbinMatt) #75

What happened here? How did y’all piss off a mod? Snipers are bad, but damnit if we can’t even keep our cool in the forums, what should we expect in-game?

(henki000) #76

Hello @RectalTerror

I have to disagree with you. Dirty Bomb is and was always completely different game with different atmosphere. In my opinion, free modding spirit and community clans are far away in Dirty Bomb. It’s uncommon that you see so many snipers in your matches. 16vs16 servers was casual fun servers and in those servers they could set whatever rules they like. Making servers unique, althought I always preferred ETpro servers. Competetive matches were usually played in much smaller team composition. Perhaps this small clip of video will convince you to think differently about snipers in W:ET (0:54-1:11) :

As you can see in video, there was no chance for medics to revive downed players. In fact, Dirty Bomb has slower TTK and being one hitted by explosive was common thing in Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory. Even if covert ops could one hit enemy, it was still infrequent pick in competetive tournaments. Sure you can open doors and use Satchel Charges in certain time and place, but it wasnt considered enforced key role, like snipers play part in Dirty Bomb. In dirty Bomb there are usually 1 sniper per competetive team and that is about to be changed. If SD keeps nerfing snipers, soon they will be so small niche of their usability, that no one would use them. Simplifying basic tactics and team composition. I dont want meta that include 2 medics/assaults and one engineer. I want to see versatile, balanced game where every merc and class is thinkable choice. I hope Dirty Bomb will turn better game than W:ET. I dont give much value for fun part, when improving value of interesting gameplay is more important.

(Xenithos) #77

To be completely honest here, I agree with Bgyoshi, almost wholly on the discussion of snipers. He brings up many points about the fact that snipers are really an issue because of the lack of defined development direction in DB, and when compared to the other problems (all problems are subjective except for glitches to be fair) they fall UNDER because they should. There are more important things to be worked on, period.

If players would see what Bgyoshi is asking for, which is not just for others to “git gud and stop whining” but rather that Splash Damage themselves would better iron out not only the purpose of snipers, but also allow community driven content and personal servers to make up rules. That way the people that want snipers can play the base game where that design decision was made, and those who think DB is better without can play in servers with it turned off.

To be completely straightforward, I think that if you ARE getting your butt destroyed by a sniper that ducks in and out of different covers, always headshots you, in a 6v6 match, then you may not be trying too hard, or the problem is the difference in teams and overall skill. That merc playing in that way could very likely kill you just as much qwith any other class. I know, because that’s the type of player I am whenever I play competitive games. I will push you into your spawn whether I’m using Skyhammer, Aimee, or Sawbonez/Phoenix. And I will do it with a team just as good as I am. DB was a game originally advertised with “more likely to kick your teeth in” snipers do that just about as good as any other weapon in DB.And they HAVE their drawbacks, a sniper trail, forced waiting after firing before you can even switch weapons, and a lack of oomph if you can’t hit your mark. If you don’t have a team supporting you, the objective won’t get done, no sniper can do everything.

(GatoCommodore) #78

you know that she can direct hit people and that direct hit delivers 100+ dmg per hit?
good naders dont bounce it, they hit on first salvo.

(ostmustis) #79

you know that a direct hit with nader does 90 dmg and thats only if the other player dont got unshakeable?

(GatoCommodore) #80

I thought direct contact also deals damage not just the explosive?
Like how if you shoot the nade too close and it wont explode but it deals a bit of damage?