A game of snipers

(Teflon Love) #41

You can still move (albeit only slowly) and toggle between standing and crouching while repairing the EV, defusing the C4 or delivering a milk jug. While receiving health or ammo from a station you just have to stay close but can still move, jump and crouch.

True, planting a C4 requires you to remain at the same spot, but you can still rotate and watch your surroundings. And all plant spots offer the possibility to hide behind cover provided you know where enemy players are located. Although this might results in plants that are harder to defend.

(DarkangelUK) #42

Considering shoe just said you need to be moving really fast to avoid, your snails pace movement when doing actions isnt nearly fast enough

(D'@athi) #43

To be honest, you should have your mates covering you while planting, defusing, and so on. If a Sniper can kill you, nearly everyone else will be able to do so, too, especially while sitting duck. Had enough games not beeing able to defend the lower dyn on underground, because the engi moved and had mates.
I know, this is a nono on your typical server, but well, that’s really not the game’s fault, right?

(DarkangelUK) #44

OHK from the opposite end of the map doesn’t suit a game where players are forced to a focused area. This isn’t a TDM game with wide map traversal, knowing where the enemy is going to be is pretty blatant, and blaming the players for how the game rewards snipers isn’t the correct way to look at it.

(LifeupOmega) #45

I’m not sure what what you’re trying to say about snipers. if they can hit you in the head, they either had a great shot, your position was bad or you were moving too slowly. If a sniper can land two headshots in one second, they got skills.

No falloff, spotting negates flank opportunities, no cooldown. It’s low risk, high reward. It’s not a matter of “how hard it is”, when it leads to a boring game when the better players do it endlessly at 60-70%+ acc. Hell, even a shit sniper is a risk because it’s an unavoidable death by virtue of being hitscan.

Snipers do have recoil, they do have cooldowns and wobble.

Recoil doesn’t matter, it resets by the time you can take another shot. Cooldown is roughly 1.5 seconds after the first shot, negligible. Wobble barely exists if you’ve ever played anything like ET.

They can instakill an entire team if that entire team is only using Proxy (and if that’s the case they deserve to die anyway) and only standing still, but the same can be said for any Merc.

But that doesn’t happen. Because every other merc subset has lengthy cooldowns to achieve this, or they have guns that don’t let them instakill and require constant tracking or follow up shots to down their opponent.

If a sniper can one shot an entire enemy team with one mag then I would say the same as before. They got skills or everyone was where they shouldn’t have been or not moving fast enough.

One shotting an entire team with no counterplay nor cooldown would indicate there’s a massive problem with that merc if the rest of the game is anything to go by, yet a sniper necessitates another sniper to counter the first one and this is somehow seen as fine. This ultimately just seems like a massive disconnect on power levels in the game and the ease of which they can be used, and how they promote RPS counter-style gameplay instead of the fast, push as a team gameplay that the game was heralded for.

This also assumes that DB’s maps aren’t ultimately 2-3 lanes which can be easily shut down by use of 100% uptime spotting in odd, unreachable spots. “where you shouldn’t have been” is such a ridiculous idea because you are required to be in one of those lanes to push, and it’s not like snipers have hindered movement - they can move from place to place as quick as anyone else.

On top of that, most major objective areas are massive, unbroken sightlines which are perfect for these mercs. Especially considering that they’re typically so long that falloff affects every other merc trying to contest them, giving them even more power.

Finally, it’s flat out not enjoyable to fight every spawn wave. Let’s go back again to the whole “long ttk, focus on gun duels, and the victor is the better player” aspect of DB from 2015 - where is that in this? None of those exist in this scenario, and you’re hugging corners all game because at any moment you could be one shot by a weapon with no cooldown and no way to actually fight back before you’re dead -
and this is a major issue, cooldowns can be tracked if you’re good enough. You see a nade fly by? You now have roughly 20 seconds to play around this. Same for anything else. But what do you do when you’re fighting a merc with cooldown-level power but none of the penalty to it? Unless you bring your own, nothing, and then we’re getting into rock-paper-scissors gameplay that DB specifically tried to avoid back then.

(RectalTerror) #46

So weren’t ET maps, and indeed, in 30vs30/no respawn time fun servers the maps weren’t progressing. But that’s the idea behind fun servers.

Yes that’s the same excuse again, it’s ok because they got skills. Yes, these players are rare, but yes, they do exist (they will headshot you as soon as your head pops, whether you’re far-jumping, running or strafing). The question being, should a(ny) competitive game allow overskilled players to be god-like? You can’t be god-like using any other merc in this game. Well you could, using Fletcher in an old version, and that was fixed. Shouldn’t good game design mean that there would be a limit in how good you can get at the game, so that you can’t possibly reach the level of a bot, ruining games?

And yes, there aren’t that many god-like snipers. But even those who are bad ruin games, only they ruin their team.

Let me ask you how many snipers on average you see in the ideal team. Because you know you have the power to change this, and that’s exactly what you did, and why we now have too many snipers.
I personally think that 1 sniper per team on average would be best. That’s how it used to be, it’s not the case anymore. If it’s really SD’s vision to have this game filled with snipers, then it’s a success. If not, then there’s a problem.

In ET, a lot of servers were limiting rocket launchers & flamethrowers, as too many of them was ruining matches. I can understand that limiting mercs isn’t much compatible with this 3-merc card system… but still, the game would really benefit from a sniper limit.

In the past, I was always seeing the bullet’s origin. And quite often, the line was passing through a wall. Which is understandable with lag/favor the shooter. Most likely because a lot were complaining about that, you changed something and then quite often the line wasn’t shown anymore, and I would suspect, exactly those times when the line was passing through a wall.
Nowadays it seems to have changed again, but I believe you now show the ghost at the location he got shot on the shooter’s side, thus quite back in time, thus no more like passing through walls, but the ghost jumping back in time quite a lot, it seems.

While my request was half-sarcastic, it wouldn’t be unrealistic to repair using button-mashing, so that you could really “get skilled at repairing fast”. Because right now it’s just pressing a button and waiting (for a sniper to instakill you) stanting still.

(AlbinMatt) #47

Ok, I still don’t get the utter witch-burny zeal everyone seems to have against snipers. Maybe it’s because I’m young and have been exposed to more laughable online BS, or because I had never played “old-school” Quakelike fps up until now, but snipers never bothered me too much.

I believe that the issue lay squarely on rifles not telegraphed well enough, which is a huge issue considering DB is a hitscan game. I highly agree with the bodyshot nerfs, though some kind of way to “flashify” the rifles would be much more useful, in my opinion.

To use Jav as an example again, her rockets are oh-so-clearly telegraphed through audio and visual cues that the only kind of people that would get hit by it would need to be stationary (like an EV repair or a non-medic reviving). Of course, the snipers have always had a stigma of being “lurky” in video games, so making sniper rifles crackle off 4th of July and adding Star Wars laser lines would not fit all that well.

I’m with everyone here, sniper rifles need a huge overhaul, but no one has any clear idea s to how we go about fixing it.

May I also take this time to immaturely chuckle at how Shoe had to seriously and politely quote someone with OP’s username.

(RectalTerror) #48

Rockets (& I’m also a Jav) are so delayed that they even give a lot of time for a single enemy to kill you before the shot. I believe it even allows for 2 shotgun shots, especially when it’s often weirdly delayed (you know when you fire your rocket and it fires 2 sec later, with no sound, for some weird technical reason). And that’s not even counting the shoot-the-rocket-mid-air problem. With snipers, nothing of this. They basically have zero drawback, other than having to reload from time to time.

I was already wearing that name when playing ET btw. I also remember back then some player told me there was a burger named that way, around where he lived.

& talking about giving players a second asshole, the “fire in YOUR hole” DB quote was something we were writing a lot in ET.

(Sairdontis) #49

Agreed. I have seen a sniper delete players in 1 sec and that includes the gib on the ground. This removes the healer’s role of having a chance to revive the player in between shots. The chamber time (bullet chambering for the next shot) needs to much higher on a sniper rifle and the realistic recoil and weight added the rifles .

It seems the game has slid into the realm of instant gib getting out of control. Do they want to delete medics role or something, because if they do they are heading in the right direction at this point.

(Your worst knifemare.) #50

I would like to leave spawn without being downed instantly as Thunder when it comes to a good sniper.
Over all good snipers just take most of the fun away of having a gunfight since usually the sniper can win in a single shot against 95% of other mercs.
Bad snipers are similar to having a player down the entire game, where if that player was any other class, they can be used as a distraction, bad snipers are typically further away and pose little to no threat to the other team.
Imo snipers (mostly the one-shots Felix and Moa) need a rework, in a way that players would still be rewarded for being accurate, but also the other person would have a chance to fight back.

(AlbinMatt) #51

The delay is still necessary for Jav to work properly in my opinion. Having those silent RPs like in CoD or Battlefield where they go thunk and obliterate four players just isn’t right in DB. However, I would agree that the weird delay is annoying, even though I never play Javelin. She could be right next to me, blasting her rocket, and I’d run out expecting a terrified squad only to find out the rocket hasn’t even fired yet.

As for snipers, on idea I to add “lens glint” which would more or less be a permanent Vasilli heartbeat beep but only if you have a direct line of sight. This will discourage snipers for camping, jumpy snipers can be punished with more movement inaccuracy (because I don’t care if you’re DB or CSGO, strafing with a sniper rifle is just stupidly unbalanced) and maybe leverage the Grandeur, since, y’know, it doesn’t come with a scope.

(RectalTerror) #52

Alright the last match I’ve played was the last straw for me, time for me to finally try Overwatch (and if that game is filled with sniper cancer as well, then fuck it, no more FPSes for me).
It’s stupid as fuck to allow “good players” to be god-like, or play along with players who aren’t.

Here’s my suggestion for the next class: Medusa. Weapon: BINOCULARS. If she SEES YOU, you FUCKIN DIE. And by just opening her eyes, she makes 1 billion points, to make sure that everyone will pick that merc. There, BEST GAME EVER.

(Nail) #53

LOL, you funny

(Sorotia) #54

Only the good snipers good for headshots, most of them are body shot heroes which get you while you’re in the middle of a fight with someone else.

(bgyoshi) #55

I’ll spoil it for you and save you $40

If you don’t heed my warning, boy are you going to be mad when you get EZPLINKED all day by Widowmakers.

People mad about OHK in DB, not complaining about:

  • Fragger nades (because you have to ‘cook’ them lmfao)
  • Javelin rockets (because they’re shiny and take 1 second to fire lmfao)
  • Nader nades (because -some- classes live through them lmfao)
  • Arty airstrikes (because they make a cute dot on the ground lmfao)
  • More and more and more and more OHK abilities

I know I’m not a god at this game and I know I’m not terrible at it either. But if I can play 95%+ DB matches without getting owned by a sniper, I know you guys can too. It’s not hard. Take cover when repairing the EV and generators. Plant C4 when the enemy isn’t paying attention or when you have a team to cover you. Don’t stand still when healing. Strafe to fire. Strafe to return fire. You really don’t have to stand still or run in a straight line.

The maps aren’t big, the snipers aren’t far away. All of the assault rifles can counter fire a sniper without trouble, and the vast majority of snipers retreat behind cover after missing one shot when you’re shooting back at them. And if you’re jumping/crouching/strafing unpredictably, you’ll rarely get hit in the head. Snipers counter snipers. Phantoms counter snipers. Naders, Javelins, and Artys spam explosives to counter snipers. Blishloks counter snipers. It’s not hard

(Sorotia) #56

Yeah…it amazes me some times the things people complain about yet there are other things that are just as annoying or even worse.

Like with Nader being on rotation this week has been annoying as all heck with all the nade spammers.

(Sairdontis) #57

Nader’s nade takes time to go off so you can dodge when you see it and sometimes even just leap over it. She is a big target to hit and slow. She can’t see you through walls with her ability.

(Sorotia) #58

Yeah…because every nade ever seen is coming straight for you…no such thing as turning corner and suddenly getting spammer.

Or you know…against 3 naders in a small area spamming in every which direction…nades bouncing off walls.

No…it’s always as straight forward as you described it.

(DarkangelUK) #59

That’s not how it works, you don’t get to shut down valid arguments with “but there are other bad things!”, that’s like me saying I’m really hungry then someone “but there are starving people in Africa!”, sure but that doesn’t make me any less hungry, and other issues existing didn’t make the sniper one any less valid. No one said there aren’t other areas of concern, and just because they exist it doesn’t mean we’re not allowed to discuss this one, in all honesty the likes of Fraggers nade is a poor example anyway for reasons already stated

(Chilled Sanity) #60

My idea would be adding a new system called “Overpenetration”

FYI. Take this with a grain of salt, As I wrote it started to get more and more overcomplicated, this is just the basics of the idea.

Since this games “Sniper rifles” are Anti-Material rifles (Felix is GM6 Lynx which fires .50 cal ammo, and MOA seems to be a mish-mash but its pretty obvious it fires oversized bullets) they can turn the snipers into a support role by adding this utterly ridiculou-, I mean semi-reasonable mechanic

The description is simple enough, If you shoot at soft targets (For example arty) you deal (for example…) %50 less damage since boolit doesnt mushroom and just goes straight through, But shooting at hard targets (For example the EV, constructibles or heavy mercs like Rhino) deals full damage or ( in case of EV and stuff ) extra damage since bullet has to go through so much metal (or lard).

And as a gimmick you can make so if you get a collateral hit the 2nd guy you hit gets full damaged as well.