A discussion on the state of the game, mainly balance


(brazenInspiration) #1

First things first let me desribe my background and expecations a bit to give my feedback a little bit of context.
I played ET for many, many years. Initially as part of a community, later as a “squad leader” for said community, playing competitve matches with a set group of people that I trained with. I played the game for years even though it was mostly unsupported after 2.60b and bani leaving etpro to gather dust.
I am saying this to outline why I am so very interested, invested even in having this game be a success. I am also painfully aware that this is by no means guaranteed because, if we are honest, Splash Damage has not been getting too lucky with their latest releases.
Quake Wars I played the beta of but personally disliked it and I did not purchase the final product. I could not even put my finger on why that was but unfortunately that was the general concensus in the ET community at the time. Brink I also played the beta for and actually purchased the game on launch. For this to not become an extensive history lesson I hope we can agree that the game had a lot of potential but was not handled well enough by Splash Damage to really take off.
Here we are now, years later. Yet another product that to some degree continous the legacy of the fast paced, movement heavy shooter. However there is plenty of them now unfortunately and in video gaming there hardly is anything new under the sun. Its about setting yourself apart and you will have noticed that the list of legacy attributes this games apparently features is rather short. I would personally not love anything more than to add “tracking based gunplay” to the list.
That is what made ET for me. There was hardly any luck in that game. If I picked up a fresh player from our pub, took him on a private ETpro server there was little to no chance of him scoring kills against me, no matter what. It took a lot of practise, aka muscle memory, to get movement, tracking and knockback (weapon kick due to incomming fire) right. On top of that was the split second decision making that results from mutli-stage objective and class based play.
The combination of those made for a very skillful, rewarding and unique experience.
Why do I keep banging on about what ET did? I am getting to eventually making a point of course.
The reason I use ET over ET:QW or Brink is because that is the game that managed to maintain an active competitive community without anything that we would have come to expect these days (support by devs or the main balance mod maker, paied tournaments, streamers covering it, social media hype, a functional anti-cheat, etc.). There was something so inherently awesome about the game that the community fought through all these struggles to maintain itself.
Hence from a business perspective that is the title I would have looked at if I was in SD’s shoes.
So did they? I would think that in many ways it is hard to argue that they did not. Most of the classes feel like a development of the ones found in ET. Some of the mechanics are exactly identical. Where it obviously differs is the business modell.
While ET was in fact free that was due to the singleplayer compotent getting canned and them rather releasing what they already made than to have it never see the light of day (and how very thankfull I am for that). This time it conceptualized as a f2p with, of course, micro transactions. This might already be a big no-go for a lot of people out there, tho I doubt for anyone invested enough to participate in these forums.
There is just so many generic f2p shooters out there, riddled with micro transactions. So the goal must be not to be generic and present a fair business modell. I personally have a thought or two on the sum of money you can spend on the mercs but thats a topic for another day.
It would also be foolish to ignore the elephant in the room that is TF2. The one big thing that DB has to offer is the multi-stage nature I have learned to love all these years ago. This for me is the biggest selling point. At the end of the day the core gameplay loop is shooting people tho, so the gunplay has to be spot on.
It is here where it becomes more difficult to draw similarities between DB and ET. The classes feel familiar but mechanics that used to be combined have been drawn out and seperated into individual classes. As an example I will use the the class that fires grenades at range, Nader, and is by far the biggest throne in my side right now. This used to be part of the engineer class and was an attachment to the semi-automatic rifles. Now in DB we see a shift away from having a dedicated engineer class. Everyone can arm C4 its just that some are quicker at doing so. Its a decision I do not fully support but I can live with. If you want your game to be popular on public servers you do not want to be dependant on a single class in order to progress with the objective, fair enough.
Back to the point of class balance tho. We currently do not have a semi-automatic rifle to play with which is a shame because that is an inherently skillful weapon to use. Also the grenade launcher now is its own weapon and instead of having both a fairly limited ammuniton supply and energy bar (2 rifle nade shots in ET and youd have to use to use actual bullets for a while) the gun is a high fire rate semi-automatic boomstick capable of dominating many choke points in the maps by just putting nades down range, no particular aim needed.
This is obviously a massive departure from what I am used to. You combine that with the fact that the class is not even designed for accurate medium range support fire onto defensive positions but also includes a SMG that is decently capable of defending the class in CQB I am in even more bewilderment. What is the class geared towards? Is there a desire to balance all classes so that they can compete, no matter what situation? Would that not make the concept of classes obsolete in the first place? Also if I can be excused to be snarky for just a second: Who came to the office one day and presented the idea of adding martyrdom; a mechanic that even CoD has been slammed for… on demand and with the latest patch not to be prevented by quick, aware play.

Really? A limit on thread lenghts? TBC in part 2


(brazenInspiration) #2

Part 2 due to lenths restrictions:

On to less speculation and more observation.
I find it a bit disappointing that the latest addition to the merc roster does not feature any interesting mechanics at all. It is yet another shotgunner and yet more explosives. I love the fact that in the duration in which I have participated in the beta there has been massive changes to the shotgun balance. It means that thankfully nothing is set in stone and that weapon and class balance is subject to experimentation.
This brings me to my next point: shotungs and medics.
The idea of having a secondary medic (Aura) with a defensive medic ability and a defensive weapon is something I can get into. I dont think Aura should be one of the two free mercs as sawbones is, with the starting loadout cars, a lot more versatile and in the current state, from what I can tell, flat out better in most situations.
I am not a big fan of how incredibly strong these healing stations are. In a 1on1 situation with an actual gun (read: not explosives) you stand no chance of advancing on that position. A passive, non-skill based bonus that allows you to win every 1on1 gunfight I personally find excessive. This is obviously where class diversification comes in but currently it feels like the way to deal with healing stations is blowing them up and that is something I think the devs have to be incredibly careful with. Maybe an option of destroying it by pressing F the same way Aura can pick them up could be an option.
I would hate to see this game become about blowing people up rather than shooting them. You have gotten yourself in an interesting situation where instead of 5 out of 6 people sporting the exact same weapon, which made for an inherently level and fair baseline in ET, you have to now cross balance all these different guns and loadout cards. The answer to that question should not be “give them more stuff that goes boom, that will make sure to level the field”.
Realizing now that this is quite an extensive post already I will not toch on the issues I see with loadout cards and competitive play this time. Also I will refrain on bashing on the stagnant, twitch shooting gameplay that is high damage sniper rifles.
Let me just say that I already have issues animating large parts of my community to come play the game with me. It feels like you are constatly blown up by someone who put in a lot less effort than you. I hope I have explained myself well enough to not be faced with the generic “just avoid all these explosions. Its easy, you scrub.” replies.

tl;dr: Everything goes boom. This is like NoQuarter not ETpro. Give classes meaning, aka strengths and weaknesses and dont be afraid to have them play a very specific, niche role.


(smartIsland) #3

I agree with a lot of what you’ve said but would just like to point out that things like healing stations do in fact bring in the interesting strategic choices that you mentioned as in Wolf. For example, sacrificing yourself to take out the station with your last bullet before dying so your team can move up and push the chokepoint.

Also sorry u missed quakewars, it was incredible


(watsyurdeal) #4

The funny thing is most explosives in thus game don’t even gib. So medics can still fix the damage spam might cause, by countering it with revive spam…irony.


(avidCow) #5

I honestly couldn’t get through most of that wall of text…

I will say I agree with mercs needing to be in their own niche. The fact anyone cant plant and revive dilutes this aspect somewhat.


(Humbug) #6

I think the biggest problem is that dirty bomb feels like TF2 instead of ET
every ETplayer is disappointed with DB
Splash Damage tries to make the game more accessible for everyone, while disappointing their true fans, the ETplayers.
They copied the gamemode (stopwatch) but left everything out that made it great (forward spawns, selectable spawns, command posts, docruns).
There also was a lot of spam in ET, but the maps were better and bigger

I don’t have any problem with aura, very easy to kill her under her station, with good aim. Don’t focus the station, shoot her in the head :smiley:

I think balance is fine, but maps suck and are TOTALLY boring


(srswizard) #7

But the classes already have strengths and weaknesses, and are fairly different from one another.

The explosives became a lot more tolerable, with the fragger nade nerfs, but I have to say that Nader is now spammier than I’d prefer, considering that one direct hit will onehit an Aura.

This topic didn’t need such a massive wall of text.


(mOist) #8

Honestly tho , got a tl;dr?


(Szakalot) #9

[quote=“Moist;18980”]

Honestly tho , got a tl;dr?[/quote]

I can give you one:

too much explosives, not enough equal-chances 1on1 duels.

@brazenInspiration

Sounds like you are playing too much on big servers. Anything more than 6v6, and present maps fall apart into a constant spam-party, much like fueldump 10v10 on etmain or Oasis 16v16, lol.

Most of the explosives you talk about are VERY EASY to dodge, when there isnt as many players around. In a 5v5 setting, having two explosive dudes will put a solid dent in your medic/fire support capabilities.

Think of Aura the way you would consider an ET minefield. If you are not the right class (engineer, or covert) you can’t safely cross the minefield either. Sure, you can pick mines off one at a time with strafejumpnig and heal as a medic, but thats hardly effective.

Similarly, Aura’s HP station is hard (but not impossible) to get through if you dont have means to destroy it. Scoring multiple headshots in short time will shred Aura, so will 2-3 people focus-firing her at once. This is the ‘medic disarming ET mines scenario’ - possible, but not optimal.

Alternatively, you can bring a proper counter (explosives) to take Aura out with ease. This is the ‘engineer/covert ops’ scenario to mines.

In the end, the W:ET style skill is still present in the game, from movement to tracking and fast reactions.


(Eox) #10

Szakalot pretty well resumed : there’s no big problems with the actual balance so far (especially since Fragger’s nerf). You are able to do “that much” things with your merc, and there’s “that much” situations where you won’t be able to progress and you’ll have to rely on your team mates, as well as you’ll be good in some battle scenarios, but you’ll be totally shredded in another one : this is part of the balance. Mercs are designed to counter some other mercs, and being countered by other ones.

Explosives are not a big deal due to how slow they are and how fast you move (seriously, even with Fragger I can dodge most of those. If I can do it, you can do it). The movement system can also allow you to dodge those explosives even more easly. I oftenly bypass Proxy’s mines just by doing a long jump at the right last moment, or jump over a mine spam with some wall jumps.

Back to the point of class balance tho. We currently do not have a semi-automatic rifle to play with which is a shame because that is an inherently skillful weapon to use.

Those semi-auto rifles exists. Arty starts with the Dreiss AR in it’s default loadout, and it’s actually the best DPS in the game if you manage to deal with it’s recoil.


(watsyurdeal) #11

Yea but it’s handling sucks

DPS doesn’t mean shit if you can’t actually hit anything due to spread.

I’d much rather have a slower rate of fire and more reliable accuracy.


(Glot) #12

@brazenInspiration
very nice post (both of them)
agree on most things.

but Szakalot is right. most things in DB are counterable and avoidable. If you’re good - you even make them useless.
You can make an opponent to switch from Nader to another class, exactly by play vs Her weaknesses.


(mOist) #13

Too true every game is a spam fest of explosives its becoming shit tbh.


(benignMaster) #14

This isn’t ET. This is dirty bomb. It has a lot of great things that ET had, but its not a clone. Also, that being said, this game is much closer to ET than any other fps out there.

I disagree with alot of your other points but I just wanted to post this. Im posting from my phone and its a hassle to quote posts and divide them up.


(Szakalot) #15

[quote=“Moist;19038”][quote=“Szakalot;18992”]
too much explosives
[/quote]

Too true every game is a spam fest of explosives its becoming shit tbh.[/quote]

Its just about how maps are build. The chokes&corridors are designed with 10 players on the server in mind. So obviously a 8v8 will become a spamfest. Same is true for CS:GO , where a map like Inferno is a huge clusterfuck at 10v10, and only becomes playable after the first 8-10 people are dead : P

Dome is definitely the best map for the 8v8 servers.


(watsyurdeal) #16

[quote=“Szakalot;19048”]
Dome is definitely the best map for the 8v8 servers.[/quote]

YES

Can’t wait for it to get textured and back on rotation


(Tomme) #17

While I agree at the minute it is a bit of an “explosives-fest” I think it is just largely down to the current merc pool, there is still lots more mercs to come out and vast majority have no kind of explosives, it is just unfortunate that most of the newly released mercs so far have been explosives-heavy.

I would also say though that you are looking at ET through rose-tinted glasses, and remember ETPro and NoQuarter were community driven modifications, not Splash Damage’s.


(brazenInspiration) #18

Seeing that there is a number of replies now it is hard for me to answer all of them and that would probably just feel like I am pressing my personal oppinion on you.
If you could not take the 3 minutes of time it takes to read my post I am very sorry but I believe that some things are better explained in detail or people will feel personally attacked and start insulting your for your opinions. I have spent enough time on the Steam forums to know this to be true. Also if you care so little that you couldnt even find the tl;dr that I provided maybe you should not be participating.
Let me say that the general idea I am getting is that you are supposed to avoid explosives. That is the obvious way to deal with it and I will take your word that it is possible. I dont believe its “easy”, I rather think this is the main skill of the game right now: avoid explosions. Unfortunately for me personally that is not at all what I am looking for. For me the mine field analogy does not work quite so well as there still is mines in the game. Also all abilities are capped for individuals not a team limit. From a simple numbers standpoint I find it hard to argue that there is not a whole lot more stuff that goes boom.
Lets hope it gets better with the addition of more mercs and a more versatile merc rotation.
I have since played the game a bit more and taken some more notes.
A delay mechanic for most things explosive would help in my opinion. You can plant mines everywhere now but they are not invisible. That to me is enough of a trade off. Why do they not require Proxy to arm them? She hops around merrily dropping these things and yes you are supposed to pay attention and yes you can shoot them but in this short time people have already gotten fairly good with them (hiding them up stairs etc.). Currently mines can be used as an offensive weapon as well.
I personally think that the MMB knife attack (or RMB with knife out) deals too much damage. I would prefer an ET like system where it detects hits from the back to deal large amounts of damage while not turning into a CoD style face knifing fest.
It would be nice to see the “downed teammate” indicator circling around the minimap (like ET). Right now the minimap is tiny and its hard to tell where to revive people.
Which brings me to the next point. The minimap in general needs some work. The icons on it are not very expressive. A forward spawn for example does not even change icon depending on what team holds it.
The turrets should have s small blind spot so they can be out maneuvered. A 360 degree cone of fire feels excessive.
It would be nice to see different color for friendly nades and airstrike markes, aka make them blue not red. With all the spam that is going on that would at least allow for some sort of situational awareness.
Maybe the Nader’s nades could bounce off players on short range rather than explode on impact. Yet again this is an idea taken from ET and it would force the Nader to be aware rather than just empty all nades on close range and then martyr when the got into a bad spot.
Why is there a selfkill button bound by default in the game if it punishes you for using it? Dont get me wrong I very much believe that you need it in competitive play to adapt to a new situation, replenish ammo, switch merc and all that good stuff but it feels like it was added to keep ET players happy but without actually understanding what it was used for.

I think the major difference to ET is the very concept of balance. The game itself is designed around class abilties, not gunplay. The actual shooting component does not impact the gameplay nearly as much as the (what currently is manily explosive) skills. I will be wachting more dirtycups but this very much holds true on public servers (even the 6on6 or 7on7 ones). The loadout cards contribute massively to this issue. With all the different guns and percentage based perk boosts the classes have become utterly generic apart from their special ability. I always look for things to compare it to in order to give myself some context. The only class based game that worked well with a large variety of available classes that I can think of is BF2. They have since cut the number of classes in less than half because they want to make it more accessible, want people to be able to do more with their class.
DB on the other hand has all these different classes but where BF2 had a very specifc subset of things each class was useful for in DB they are pretty much generic. The game has to be balanced with a small sub-set of all mercs in mind. The majority of the player base will have the f2p mercs and maybe 1 or 2 on top. I cant picture a siginicant amount of players buying a class for 6€ or more.

There is currently is an abundance of defensive mechanics in the game (turrent, med station, stickies, mines, nader works both ways, etc.) I think it really is time to add some inherently offensive and some gunplay based mercs to the game.


(watsyurdeal) #19

Well yea, because the reality is if the defending team kept constantly losing it’d be like “fuck this shit”. It’s like playing Counter Strike and ALWAYS losing on CT side, nobody likes that. Those mechanics, explosives, sentries, etc, create obstacles and distractions that allow more than just straight DM. But it of course slows the game down. You gotta remember this is free to play not pay to play like CS GO or Battlefield.

It’s a double edged sword, and personally, I like the gun play the most in Dirty Bomb as well. I hate games that have very fast TTK, cause it leaves no time to enjoy the fight and truly test people’s skills. But on the flipside, a game with just gunplay and no tactics is just a Deathmatch Shooter, like Quake or Unreal.

The reality is two things, one, I think if this game was redone, we’d only need 5 classes, Tank, Engineer, Medic, Sniper, and Soldier. And from there you can add little ways to customize each of those classes, like trading a Sniper Rifle for a Battle Rifle, or as a Tank having a 1 shot Mortar as opposed to a LMG. You’d become a bombardment character rather than a a straight up “mow down everything”. True but carefully limited freedom, is better than overspecialization and having too many of the same flavor. If that makes sense.

And two, with class based games, it assumes people are competent. And if I learned anything from this game and TF2…people are FUCKING stupid. Nobody wants to get on the point, people are afraid of dying, and they’re too busy to use their mic.

Like…these 3 things are team play is based on, getting shit done, taking it for the team, and communicating, it’s not rocket science. But that’s just how people are these days, the main stream audience at least. So they have to really try to appeal to these people with their game design and balance choices.

It’s not quite what I would do, but then again, it’s still fun so…can’t complain.


(brazenInspiration) #20

While im not entirely certain I agree with your CS:GO analogy (if CT loses in that game its because people got bored of camping, understandable but wrong of them) and I dont see how balance is any different in a f2p game I do see where you are comming from with less classes. Unfortunately they decided not to go the cosmetic customization route and hence have to have a number of classes to sell. This might well be what keeps this game from every being properly geared towards competitive play.
Also Im a bit shocked by you claiming Quake has no tactics. Im not sure you ever played it on a competitve level. The situational awareness of these guys is so intimmidating that I love to watch streams but flat out refuse to play myself.