3 core changes to Phantom, how do you like them?

(Nimron) #81

Phantom is fine. stop that spam, it is annoyin… every few days = new thread about gettin “your” Phantom “your” way. :#

(gg2ez) #82

@rhetoricalCorgi this thread is about a month old now.

(watsyurdeal) #83

That, and if you actually Phantom is fine, try playing him against competent people who can actually pay attention. It’s hilarious.

(Nimron) #84

Team fight, Phantom sneaks around HAM & aim for the med = gege

(Amerika) #85

Did you folks forget that cloak drains every time you get hit? And did you forget that Red Eye and Vasilli both have tools to point out where Phantom is?[/quote]

When talking like this you need to also not forget other conversations we’ve had where DB is not TF2 and not balanced around everyone being able to instantly switch to a counter. In DB not all teams will have a counter in their lineup so arguing balance because a potential counter exists as if it’s an option every single time it’s needed isn’t viable. It works in TF2 because anybody can counter the other team pulling a particular strat. But if there isn’t a counter in the lineup then a match could potentially become very unbalanced. Come on man, you know this :slight_smile:

DB is not rock, paper, scissors balanced like TF2. Also, if you had 100% cloak you wouldn’t typically ever be hit outside of random luck because you wouldn’t be seen.

(watsyurdeal) #86

Did you folks forget that cloak drains every time you get hit? And did you forget that Red Eye and Vasilli both have tools to point out where Phantom is?[/quote]

When talking like this you need to also not forget other conversations we’ve had where DB is not TF2 and not balanced around everyone being able to instantly switch to a counter. In DB not all teams will have a counter in their lineup so arguing balance because a potential counter exists as if it’s an option every single time it’s needed isn’t viable. It works in TF2 because anybody can counter the other team pulling a particular strat. But if there isn’t a counter in the lineup then a match could potentially become very unbalanced. Come on man, you know this :slight_smile:

DB is not rock, paper, scissors balanced like TF2. Also, if you had 100% cloak you wouldn’t typically ever be hit outside of random luck because you wouldn’t be seen.[/quote]

Yea, but the thing is Spy didn’t even have a rock paper scissors balance as much as it was a awareness thing. Spy was easy to counter if you listened and payed attention to what’s around you. Stealth exploits gaps in player awareness and communication, if you have both those it’s damn difficult job.

Even now that’s the deal with Phantom, even if you are blind I don’t know how people can mistake that noise Refractive Armor makes.

If Phantom can’t hurt you till he reveals himself, then really is only a threat in terms of positioning, because he can get behind you from right under you nose. But there’s always a way to deal with that, in the same manner you deal with flanks or rushing around a corner into a trap. I think it’s absolutely fair, he can’t hurt you but you can’t easily hurt him till he’s in the spot he wants to be. That’s part of his job is, plus he’s going to often be in fights on his one, 1 versus 2 or more. I hardly see the issue there.

(Rosenkreuz) #87

Did you folks forget that cloak drains every time you get hit? And did you forget that Red Eye and Vasilli both have tools to point out where Phantom is?[/quote]

When talking like this you need to also not forget other conversations we’ve had where DB is not TF2 and not balanced around everyone being able to instantly switch to a counter. In DB not all teams will have a counter in their lineup so arguing balance because a potential counter exists as if it’s an option every single time it’s needed isn’t viable. It works in TF2 because anybody can counter the other team pulling a particular strat. But if there isn’t a counter in the lineup then a match could potentially become very unbalanced. Come on man, you know this :slight_smile:

DB is not rock, paper, scissors balanced like TF2. Also, if you had 100% cloak you wouldn’t typically ever be hit outside of random luck because you wouldn’t be seen.[/quote]

Yea, but the thing is Spy didn’t even have a rock paper scissors balance as much as it was a awareness thing. Spy was easy to counter if you listened and payed attention to what’s around you. Stealth exploits gaps in player awareness and communication, if you have both those it’s damn difficult job.

Even now that’s the deal with Phantom, even if you are blind I don’t know how people can mistake that noise Refractive Armor makes.

If Phantom can’t hurt you till he reveals himself, then really is only a threat in terms of positioning, because he can get behind you from right under you nose. But there’s always a way to deal with that, in the same manner you deal with flanks or rushing around a corner into a trap. I think it’s absolutely fair, he can’t hurt you but you can’t easily hurt him till he’s in the spot he wants to be. That’s part of his job is, plus he’s going to often be in fights on his one, 1 versus 2 or more. I hardly see the issue there.[/quote]

I’ve thought it over long and hard about the mandatory manual deactivation of the RA idea, and I’ve concluded that in order for it not to be a pain in the butt to use for Phantom players the activation and deactivation would have to be significantly lessened, and even then it would probably be very clunky. It might make things a little less annoying on the victim’s end of the game, but I think we can do a lot better than that. I’m not exactly sure how at this time, though. The problem might not even lie with RA’s activation/deactivation method.

(watsyurdeal) #88

Did you folks forget that cloak drains every time you get hit? And did you forget that Red Eye and Vasilli both have tools to point out where Phantom is?[/quote]

When talking like this you need to also not forget other conversations we’ve had where DB is not TF2 and not balanced around everyone being able to instantly switch to a counter. In DB not all teams will have a counter in their lineup so arguing balance because a potential counter exists as if it’s an option every single time it’s needed isn’t viable. It works in TF2 because anybody can counter the other team pulling a particular strat. But if there isn’t a counter in the lineup then a match could potentially become very unbalanced. Come on man, you know this :slight_smile:

DB is not rock, paper, scissors balanced like TF2. Also, if you had 100% cloak you wouldn’t typically ever be hit outside of random luck because you wouldn’t be seen.[/quote]

Yea, but the thing is Spy didn’t even have a rock paper scissors balance as much as it was a awareness thing. Spy was easy to counter if you listened and payed attention to what’s around you. Stealth exploits gaps in player awareness and communication, if you have both those it’s damn difficult job.

Even now that’s the deal with Phantom, even if you are blind I don’t know how people can mistake that noise Refractive Armor makes.

If Phantom can’t hurt you till he reveals himself, then really is only a threat in terms of positioning, because he can get behind you from right under you nose. But there’s always a way to deal with that, in the same manner you deal with flanks or rushing around a corner into a trap. I think it’s absolutely fair, he can’t hurt you but you can’t easily hurt him till he’s in the spot he wants to be. That’s part of his job is, plus he’s going to often be in fights on his one, 1 versus 2 or more. I hardly see the issue there.[/quote]

I’ve thought it over long and hard about the mandatory manual deactivation of the RA idea, and I’ve concluded that in order for it not to be a pain in the butt to use for Phantom players the activation and deactivation would have to be significantly lessened, and even then it would probably be very clunky. It might make things a little less annoying on the victim’s end of the game, but I think we can do a lot better than that. I’m not exactly sure how at this time, though. The problem might not even lie with RA’s activation/deactivation method.[/quote]

You can literally test it right now, go play Phantom, activate cloak, he’ll press a button before it activates. That animation is our cloak and decloak delay. Once cloaked, you can’t attack, and you have to wait for the animation to complete before you can start attacking people. It doesn’t feel clunky at all to me.

(Rosenkreuz) #89

Did you folks forget that cloak drains every time you get hit? And did you forget that Red Eye and Vasilli both have tools to point out where Phantom is?[/quote]

When talking like this you need to also not forget other conversations we’ve had where DB is not TF2 and not balanced around everyone being able to instantly switch to a counter. In DB not all teams will have a counter in their lineup so arguing balance because a potential counter exists as if it’s an option every single time it’s needed isn’t viable. It works in TF2 because anybody can counter the other team pulling a particular strat. But if there isn’t a counter in the lineup then a match could potentially become very unbalanced. Come on man, you know this :slight_smile:

DB is not rock, paper, scissors balanced like TF2. Also, if you had 100% cloak you wouldn’t typically ever be hit outside of random luck because you wouldn’t be seen.[/quote]

Yea, but the thing is Spy didn’t even have a rock paper scissors balance as much as it was a awareness thing. Spy was easy to counter if you listened and payed attention to what’s around you. Stealth exploits gaps in player awareness and communication, if you have both those it’s damn difficult job.

Even now that’s the deal with Phantom, even if you are blind I don’t know how people can mistake that noise Refractive Armor makes.

If Phantom can’t hurt you till he reveals himself, then really is only a threat in terms of positioning, because he can get behind you from right under you nose. But there’s always a way to deal with that, in the same manner you deal with flanks or rushing around a corner into a trap. I think it’s absolutely fair, he can’t hurt you but you can’t easily hurt him till he’s in the spot he wants to be. That’s part of his job is, plus he’s going to often be in fights on his one, 1 versus 2 or more. I hardly see the issue there.[/quote]

I’ve thought it over long and hard about the mandatory manual deactivation of the RA idea, and I’ve concluded that in order for it not to be a pain in the butt to use for Phantom players the activation and deactivation would have to be significantly lessened, and even then it would probably be very clunky. It might make things a little less annoying on the victim’s end of the game, but I think we can do a lot better than that. I’m not exactly sure how at this time, though. The problem might not even lie with RA’s activation/deactivation method.[/quote]

You can literally test it right now, go play Phantom, activate cloak, he’ll press a button before it activates. That animation is our cloak and decloak delay. Once cloaked, you can’t attack, and you have to wait for the animation to complete before you can start attacking people. It doesn’t feel clunky at all to me. [/quote]

I’ve tried that in actual combat and it was a huge pain in my neck. That’s a no-vote from me unless the engage/disengage animation is significantly reduced, as I’ve already stated.

(Naonna) #90

As old as this thread is, I’ve summerised the following out of the walls of text:

Phantom’s ability to attack out of cloak should be removed.

To compensate for the above ‘nerf’ - boost the cloak to be either 90 or 100 percent invisible, but keep the loud ringing sound it has now, and remove ALL protection from the armor WHILE invisible.

(At this point adding a second ability seems pointless, if we’re classing him in a similar way to a sniper.)

A few people have suggested movement buffs, such as a zip-line/grapple. (Which from a programming standpoint is glitch-y and unreliable: see what happened to TF2’s Mannpower mode)

As a personal addition, I feel that giving him a speed boost ONLY while cloaked, along with making his invisibility 90 percent at ALL times, rather than just standing still, could be a good option, if we leave the loud ringing sound attached to his armor’s use.

As the video below shows, if a cloaked phantom gets too near to a decent player, they will die, despite the invisibility, either at 90 OR 100 percent. After the above changes, he will be able to flank, but NOT take action unless visible, and not have any tank-i-ness.

Some players worry that this will be a rock - paper - scissors match, but any one with ears can hear Phantom after he travels past, and once visible, he’s rather squishy.

Final note:
As the katana is very slow and cumbersome when lunging or even slashing, once behind enemy lines, it’s advised to continue using his primary SMG rather than using him as the spy from TF2. Phantom should flank: not face-stab or back-stab. With the changes listed above, the katana would actually be LESS useful, as a knife’s faster run-speed would compliment him better.

p.s. Either reducing his cooldown back to it’s old level of six seconds or leaving it as-is at twelve should be fine. The question is how often should phantom be allowed to move once behind enemy lines, in-between his attempts at picking off mercs.

(Naonna) #91

(Also, I forgot to mention that he STILL has counters in RedEye and Vassili, even if the counters matter less after the above suggested changes, since Phantom will be fully visible whenever he attempts to attack.)

(JJMAJR) #92

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;17205”]
-Some shit about EMP bullshit…[/quote]

The EMP is a horrendous idea. It’s rock-paper-scissors, and honestly that’s not a good way to balance a game where players don’t have access to every single role in a single match.

If anything, Phantom needs one of the following:

-Assault class area denial, most likely through grenades.
-Support abilities, with spotting abilities being most reasonable, but SD refused to do that so far. My favorite idea on these forums so far is the Phantom getting the ability to hack enemy communications.

If the Phantom doesn’t have any of that, he’s going to be either broken or useless.

Also, the Phantom shouldn’t shoot right out of a cloak because his camouflage isn’t situational and triggered by specific events. He can activate it any time as long as he has energy, like TF2’s Spy, so he should have his cloak balanced in a similar manner.

The fastest way to fix this is to code the cloak to be similar to Sparks’s Revive Gun, where the Phantom has to not have other weapons in his hands (not even his melee) in order to use his ability.

(Venokk) #93

I can already foresee the hate I’m about to receive from these suggestions, but bear with my here. I remember when Phantom came out, a lot of people were constantly raging due to his ability to “tank” with his refractive armor, and then he’s been nerfed to the point where he can’t even properly kill one enemy without getting noticed and squashed in mere secs due to his relatively slow movement speed.
Phantom was made for killing, that’s already plainly obvious, the problem is HOW he does it. He was supposed to be this sneaky invisible mercenary that just can’t keep his trap shut, even while invisible, so my suggestion is this: make his cloak soak up less damage and make him a little more transparent (anything as long as it’s not an obvious walking blob), while still keeping his static and humming sound. His katana is fine (considering he can use chopper), but his movement speed should honestly be increased from 410 to 415, or even 420 (blaze it) if he is going to be more of a sneaky fast moving assassin rather than a tanking blob of lounge.

(HoakinBlackforge) #94

Oh please, shut the fuck up already with the “TF2 clone”, you guys are like what happened with overwatch. “Hurr durr, copy copy”.

We are here to balance a character and make him useful in the game, not complain.

Hes a “Unique” character kinda like rhino, no any other character has a similar ability, so let Phantom be a Phantom and not a useless character.

(Naonna) #95

Boosting his movement speed would be a great help, at least while cloaked, along with a SLIGHT buff to the invisibility: that way he can have at least a chance to escape. In the merc role call for Phantom, he was intended to ‘walk right through enemy lines undetected’ while invisible. Right now, he’s easy to spot unless standing perfectly still: nothing like what we saw in the clip. Boosting his speed ONLY while cloaked would at least let him get behind enemy lines, but have a tough time if he’s spotted once there.

(DeadAlive) #96

I’m still reading through the thread, but I’ll just go ahead and toss in my 2 cents.

The changes sound good, now we just need to try them out. Many games have made cloaks work, so it can be done here.

Regarding visual and sound cues, here’s the basic formula that works (not that you have to stick to this):

Option 1: Zero visual, but loud sound in close proximity

Option 2: Zero sound, but modest visual in close proximity

Option 3: Minor sound + minor visual

Additionally, the cloak time has to be balanced with other factors. For example, the current cloak time is not very much, plus both Sniper and Redeye can spot him and kill the cloak, which is too high of a penalty for Phantom, imo.

If he’s going to be detectable, then he needs a good long cloak, and/or a faster cooldown, with a more dynamic cooldown mechanism, e.g., as long as there’s cloak time left, then he can activate it.

Other optional balances include:

  • Limiting Phantom to meelee and semi-auto pistol

  • Delay of 5 seconds after decloaking before you can use your primary

  • Much slower weapon switching and reload times

  • Limit mag size, e.g., 5 rounds

  • Meelee damage is modest to large in the back of the head, but very weak elsewhere

  • Any number of other creative combos

TL;DR : The bottom line is, the Phantom has to be fun to play, and the reason people want it is because of the cloak, so the cloak has to be fun to play, not a PITA.

(watsyurdeal) #97

You’re making it way harder than it should be @spaceboy

All of your changes are GOD awful for the speed and pace that Dirty Bomb is, it’s really very simple.

Cloak should simply keep you from attacking until you decloak, the current animation for turning it on and off is more than enough to give people plenty of time to attack once Phantom attempts to make a move. Second, we can keep the armor aspect as the main brunt of it is no longer an issue, since Phantom can not attack while cloaked. Third, Phantom NEEDS a utility that fits his recon role since if I wanted a killing class, I would always pick Fragger, nothing they can do can make me or anyone else choose Phantom for killing, he needs an ability that supports his team and fits a specific niche.

That’s it, that’s changes they could make in a weekend.

[quote=“JJMAJR;110131”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;17205”]
-Some shit about EMP bullshit…[/quote]

The EMP is a horrendous idea. It’s rock-paper-scissors, and honestly that’s not a good way to balance a game where players don’t have access to every single role in a single match.

If anything, Phantom needs one of the following:

-Assault class area denial, most likely through grenades.
-Support abilities, with spotting abilities being most reasonable, but SD refused to do that so far. My favorite idea on these forums so far is the Phantom getting the ability to hack enemy communications.

If the Phantom doesn’t have any of that, he’s going to be either broken or useless.

Also, the Phantom shouldn’t shoot right out of a cloak because his camouflage isn’t situational and triggered by specific events. He can activate it any time as long as he has energy, like TF2’s Spy, so he should have his cloak balanced in a similar manner.

The fastest way to fix this is to code the cloak to be similar to Sparks’s Revive Gun, where the Phantom has to not have other weapons in his hands (not even his melee) in order to use his ability.[/quote]

There’s literally no logical reason not to give him an EMP, it fits his job PERFECTLY. Since he specializes in close range and often times that will bring you in contact with turrets, mines, health stations, etc, it makes perfect sense for him to throw what is essentially a non lethal grenade that’s made to disable these deployables, so he can get his target without anything impeding him.

(JJMAJR) #98

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;110278”]There’s literally no logical reason not to give him an EMP, it fits his job PERFECTLY.

Since he specializes in close range and often times that will bring you in contact with turrets, mines, health stations, etc, it makes perfect sense for him to throw what is essentially a non lethal grenade that’s made to disable these deployables, so he can get his target without anything impeding him.[/quote]

Again, rock paper scissors.

Phantom already can destroy Bushwacker’s turrets with ease, while him running into Proxy mines and dealing with health stations is his own goddamn fault.

If he becomes an Assault class, the Phantom should be able to flashbang or frag anything within the radius of a healing station.

If he becomes a recon class, then the Aura would be fucked by him anyhow.

(watsyurdeal) #99

[quote=“JJMAJR;110285”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;110278”]There’s literally no logical reason not to give him an EMP, it fits his job PERFECTLY.

Since he specializes in close range and often times that will bring you in contact with turrets, mines, health stations, etc, it makes perfect sense for him to throw what is essentially a non lethal grenade that’s made to disable these deployables, so he can get his target without anything impeding him.[/quote]

Again, rock paper scissors.

Phantom already can destroy Bushwacker’s turrets with ease, while him running into Proxy mines and dealing with health stations is his own goddamn fault.

If he becomes an Assault class, the Phantom should be able to flashbang or frag anything within the radius of a healing station.

If he becomes a recon class, then the Aura would be fucked by him anyhow.[/quote]

Wrong, without her healing station she is a super easy kill, and we already have a flashbang character coming named Thunder, so he sure as hell sin’t getting that.

(DeadAlive) #100

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;110278”]You’re making it way harder than it should be @spaceboy

All of your changes are GOD awful for the speed and pace that Dirty Bomb is, it’s really very simple.

Cloak should simply keep you from attacking until you decloak, the current animation for turning it on and off is more than enough to give people plenty of time to attack once Phantom attempts to make a move. Second, we can keep the armor aspect as the main brunt of it is no longer an issue, since Phantom can not attack while cloaked. Third, Phantom NEEDS a utility that fits his recon role since if I wanted a killing class, I would always pick Fragger, nothing they can do can make me or anyone else choose Phantom for killing, he needs an ability that supports his team and fits a specific niche.

That’s it, that’s changes they could make in a weekend.[/quote]

The simple cloak is fine as long as it actually plays balanced, not just an idea on paper. I’m all for anything that actually works.

As for my ideas being horrendous…

  • People make pistol and meelee kills all the time. Limiting Phantom to that might make current players unhappy, but it wouldn’t be a death nail. After all, the whole point of the merc is to cloak in to meelee range for a guaranteed kill, not come in behind 6 guys and then spray and pray.

  • Primary weapon delay after decloaking. This is similar to above. Not exactly a disaster. It would require a meelee or pistol initial strike, or you can just decloak in cover and wait. The actual time can be adjusted, i.e., 2 seconds, 3, 4, etc.

  • Slower weapon switch and reload times. Again, reinforcing the “decloak, strike and cover” tactic that the merc is supposed to be about in the first place.

  • Mag size limit: Again, the cloak is not supposed to be a ‘win button’ where you go behind enemy lines and take out 10 people with 50 round banana clips. This is still a team game, and this is a stealth class.

  • Meelee damage hitbox changes: This is the only one that would really make it difficult to get a solid strike in, except for stationary players, of which there aren’t many, but it can be adjusted as well.

When I said these were optional additions, I did mean optional, only to be considered if the base mechanism wasn’t quite balanced and the Phantom was becoming OP.