Why I Hate The Melee Changes...


(Dirmagnos) #41

And when some1 has nothing of value to say, they start nitpicking. Grammar seem to be favourite.

Apparently there is. Is it this stupid lag compensation or something in game mechanics, but i see rather often mercs surviving hits that they shouldnt otherwise. Like Auras just walking away from closerange mine of grenade explosions.

I never saw the whole 360 degree macro spin in game, I only saw it on the video. Most people I knew were only doing 90 degree turns. Right now I think melee with a sword is still a joke compared to the Kek.

Sword kills all but 2 mercs with 2 stabs(some with 1). And if you cant hit anything with it, then its not sword stats or turn speed fault.


(KangaJoo) #42

I’ve only ever seen you disagree with proposed changes. It seems like you think the game is perfect as is, aside from some bugs, which is a ridiculous notion. The whole point of a beta is to have an opportunity to test out new mechanics. Why do you insist on not doing any testing? If it really is that bad, then you can just revert the changes. And if you’re worried that the player base will evaporate after one bad patch, then I think the phantom patch is strong enough evidence to show that won’t be the case.

You honestly could not be more wrong. The shooting in this game has such a low skill ceiling that strategy, movement, tactics and especially teamwork are the main factors that determine which team is best. The reason why changes to the gunplay get brought up so much by competitive players, especially ones regarding aimpunch, is because the current gunplay mechanics have such a low skill ceiling that a player’s ability to aim is pretty much irrelevant at the competitive level; in pubs it means something but most competitive players are pretty much as good at aiming as the skill ceiling will let them be. As long as you can get body shots on a moving player, you’re good to go. Whether or not you can consistently line up headshots doesn’t really matter. Aim and individual skill shouldn’t be everything but they should still matter at all levels of play and not just while casually pubbing.

Again, I have no idea where you’re getting this info. Yeah, a couple competitive players have expressed those opinions but that’s definitely not the majority. Literally every competitive player I’ve talked, about 15 or so, have said they’re pretty much OK with how spread works. The only changes I’ve heard that most competitive players agree upon would be to nerf jumping accuracy a bit more. In general the competitive players are fine with the amount of recoil the game has right now but I’ve actually heard a decent amount of players say they wouldn’t mind increasing the recoil slightly. Again, most players feel the shooting has a low skill ceiling right now so having more recoil might help out a bit.

Here are the variables related to aimpunch you might know about and can compensate for:

  1. The gun your enemy is using.
  2. Whether or not you’re likely to get shot at.

Here are the variables related to aimpunch that are 100% unknown to you, at least until after it’s too late to correct for them.

  1. When exactly you will start experiencing aimpunch and therefore when you need to shift your aim from the enemy’s head to his chest/stomach so you can continue getting headshots. This is why even at the competitive level, you see a lot of top players mostly going for body shots, even when they’re not being shot at, instead of headshots.
  2. When exactly you will stop experiencing aimpunch and therefore when you need to shift your aim from the enemy’s body to his head again.
  3. The exact direction your crosshair will move, meaning you cannot reliably correct for aimpunch even if you correctly guess the two above variables.
  4. The magnitude of aimpunch you will experience is unknown even if you know what gun your enemy is using because you don’t know whether they will headshot you or body shot you.

See unknown variables 1-4…


(KangaJoo) #43

First of all, outside of pubs against below average players, “dodging” won’t stop you from getting aimpunched for long or at all if you’re using a heavy merc; I play sawbonez and sparks mostly so no, I’m not biased towards heavies. Second, you’re saying you think that GUNFIGHTS should be determined more by one’s ability to ADAD spam (and jump if it’s close range) and one’s reflexes than their ability to precisely and consistently aim. The “skill” in ADAD spamming and jumping is literally mashing buttons and is something people master in about 15 minutes of playing this game. Reaction time isn’t even a skill. It’s a physical trait mostly determined by age and genetics. Consistent and precise aim on the other hand is a skill. Not only that, it’s a skill that nobody has yet mastered, that’s why aimbotters can beat pro CS players in pugs. It’s something that could have a huge amount of depth and requires years of practice to get to the top level at, yet you think it’s important for gunfights to shift towards the “skills” a 5 year old are about as good at as pro fps player… I can’t facepalm hard enough right now.

Honestly, the current melee system isn’t that bad, it’s mostly just a bit annoying. The main reason why I’m against the changes is because they could have fixed the problems without nerfing movement. They could’ve easily made it like CS:GO, where the damage window for melee attacks is short and you can only damage 1 player per swipe, and everything would be fine. Limiting the number of plays someone can make, when those plays require skill and good decision making, is not a good thing and should be avoided.

[quote=“Gi.Am;58620”]Visual aimpunch on the other hand I oppose because it divides the playerbase in a bad way (IMO). It lowers the skill ceiling for those that know to ignore it (they only have to worry about headtracking)[/quote] Yes, because forcing people to go for headshots instead of easy body shots, something people currently do even at the top level because it’s the only viable option with aimpunch in the game, lowers the skill ceiling… Deeeeeeeerp :smiley: … Seriously, I’m running out of hands and faces to palm. As for the issue of new players not knowing about how visual viewkick would work, this could easily be prevented by making it clear on the player’s screen that their crosshair and their bullets don’t move when they take fire. If you want evidence that this doesn’t create a problem then look at games like BF3 or even previous SD games. Heck the recoil system in CS:GO is way less obvious than a visual viewkick mechanic and yet new players realize recoil is disconnected from their crosshair after 30 seconds of playing.

Actually, this isn’t the case. While it’s true that all competitive players will disable whatever they need to get a high framerate and that we’ll disable things that don’t affect fps if it creates input lag or blocks our vision, it’s still possible to make beautiful maps that have good readability. The best example of this is probably the new version of Season in CS:GO. This is one of the best looking maps in the game yet it also has arguably the best readability of any map in the game. This is because the designers used a really cool art style and theme but also used lighting and colors that contrasted strongly with the player models.

[quote=“Gi.Am;58620”]Racing teams are propably the biggest competive “control freaks” there are, the calculations, predictions, training they do is staggering (and often quite interesting). Results in good weather conditions (not to hot, not to wet) quite often are decided at the start because teams are very good at controlling the actual race. Weather extremes (too hot/wet) are quite often a big ? and will show which driver is good at adapting to changing conditions or if that driver can only follow the set and trained optimum.
Likewise formula one has to constantly change rules, introduce new ways to make the actual race more interesting, to push teams out of their highly optimized comfortzone.[/quote]
Again this example is very flawed. The drivers still have full knowledge of the new variables and the ability to perfectly compensate for them. This isn’t true for mechanics like aimpunch. What this is most similar to is when a league or tournament tells their players that they are adding a newly designed map into the rotation. Players will be unfamiliar with these maps and will have to adapt to them with new strategies and possibly adopt new play styles, but they still have full control over all the new variables and can fully work around them if they do their homework.


(perfumedCoin) #44

“what will you do to answer the endless chain of revives?”

Just shoot him once again when he is down. Shouldn’t be too hard. And since revives have been already nerfed quite hard, I don’t see any negative point to remove instagib with the snipers. You would gib with 2 shoots instead of 1 with a sniper.

You don’t see many snipers in public that’s true. In competitive scenes, Vassily is a must have.


(Gi.Am) #45

@ChinaRep look I think we are circle’ing a bit too much.
So let me apologize if you are offended by my generic description of a person that participates in any form of competition.
And you and your friends don’t feel represented by this description I say sorry.

It was mainly meant as an illustration why listening only to the Pros might steer a game in a direction it shouldn’t because what a “Pro” sees as important in a game might not always be that, for the same reason don’t listen exclusively to anyone, hear their arguments look at your design manifest and decide what is good for your vision of the game (good for the longterm success of the game).

As for me well, no the game is not perfect but pretty close. Atleast the core mechanics, infact when I joined I was highly impressed how fluid and well balanced, the gameplay, the maps and the then existing mercs where (not perfect but pretty darn close).
Very impressive and not the norm for a game that just started the jump into the deep steam beta pool.
And its this great core gameplay/balance that keeps me playing despite the mediocre out of match experience, the lack of basic features, the bad UI flow, the bad server performance the snail pace of fixing gamebreaking bugs, the lack of love for MM, the less than stellar communication skills of SD. All that would have put me of the game a long time ago, if I didn’t really really enjoy the game at hand.

So considering that most suggestions follow openly or vailed/unknowingly “hey I come from game XY and it has that great feature Z that is totaly awesome and I miss it,it would improve the game 1000%” without considering how it will affect/shift the core gameplay and how it might fit into the context of DB. I do by large point out overlooked problems that might harm the game or if I do like a suggestion might point out a couple of points that need to be different to work (or give a like if that suggestion is indeed awesome).

Don’t get me wrong looking at other games for inspiration is a good thing and suggestion feat. of other games is all well. Everybody does it, including myself no doubt. But honestly if you can’t bear critics pointing out, why (in their eyes) your idea might not be as awesome as you think it is. Why are you even posting it in a discussion forum on the internet?

Hmm your description of what is important in a competive match sounds interesting.
Let me recap: In a Teambased objective focused game. The team with the better communication, the better strategy, the better Merc synergy and the one that is playing stronger for objectives, is the one that is winning? Granted opinions might differ, but sounds to me that the gameplay is promoting the right things isn’t.
Personal opinion: I would hate it, if in a teambased objective focused game, a team that is better in all those things, looses out simply because the other side has the best sniper/Assault player in the world.

Aimpunch (last thing I’m gonna say about it)

First I never said that reflexes and movement should be the dominant factor in a fight (that of course goes to aiming well). Just that they should be a factor in a fight.
Removing aimpunch altogether has the potential that reflexes, movement good positioning becomes unimportant for mercs that have a clear HP/Damage advantage over their enemy (i.e. vassili can simply stand in the open take a couple small arms rounds and still win the fight simply because of the damage advantage is SR gives him).

  1. The moment the first bullet hits you
  2. shortly after the enemy stops hitting you (to be exact shortly depends on the damage the weapon does)
  3. Indeed random and I stated as much before
  4. actual true, but considering your previous statements that aimpunch reduces the skillceiling and gives unfair advantages to people with bad aim and everybody is resorting to bodyshots as soon as they get hit. I make the educated guess, bodyshot magnitude always, especially if you return fire.

Forgive me a last quip, for someone who claims that he doesn’t need/want control you are demanding an aweful lot of exact knowledge to avoid taking risks, increasing your chance of winning.


(KangaJoo) #46

[quote=“Gi.Am;59262”]
Hmm your description of what is important in a competive match sounds interesting.
Let me recap: In a Teambased objective focused game. The team with the better communication, the better strategy, the better Merc synergy and the one that is playing stronger for objectives, is the one that is winning? Granted opinions might differ, but sounds to me that the gameplay is promoting the right things isn’t.
Personal opinion: I would hate it, if in a teambased objective focused game, a team that is better in all those things, looses out simply because the other side has the best sniper/Assault player in the world.[/quote]
Having a game where mental skills like teamplay and tactics is important but at the end of the day it’s still an FPS and individual skill should actually mean something. Right now as long as you’re half decent individually, you’re pretty much good enough to play against the best. This is an FPS. What makes the entire teambased fps genre unique is that mechanical skills (aiming, movement, etc.) and mental skills (decision making, teamwork, communication, tactics) are both supposed to be important. Ideally they should be about equal in importance so that players have to master both to truly master the game. If you want a game that’s 90% mental skill with a touch of mechanical skill here and there, then go play a MOBA, you’ll feel right at home.

I never said you did, I said that’s what you’re trying to shift it towards, i.e., you’re trying to shift the game to value mechanics that aren’t skillbased at all at the cost of making mechanics that are skillbased less important. To me, this is beyond illogical.

OK, about the whole positioning thing, you keep bringing this up but having aimpunch in the game doesn’t really make positioning more important. This is because you can position yourself well and get the jump on someone but if they have more HP than you and they react quickly, then as soon as you start getting aimpunched you’ll have to get body shots and there’s a good chance they’ll end up out damaging you. The best way to emphasize positioning is actually by lowering TTKs. This is because when a game has a low TTK, it’s possible to kill a player that’s caught in a bad position before he even has a chance to react. And guess what! There’s a convenient and highly requested change the devs could make that would lower the effective TTKs, at least for skilled players, and it’s called removing aimpunch so that people can actually get headshots consistently :).

Really, you can react to and adjust your aim as soon as the first shot hits you? See little old me with my 182 ms reaction time (which is in like the top 98 percentile according to humanbenchmark) usually misses a couple shots when I first get hit with aimpunch before I react to it. We all know aimpunch starts when you get hit, but that doesn’t mean you can predict when you’ll get hit with a high level of precision. The best you can do is take a guess at when you’ll get hit and start aiming low so you can at least land body shots.

[quote=“Gi.Am;59262”]2. shortly after the enemy stops hitting you (to be exact shortly depends on the damage the weapon does).[/quote] Same problem as above.

[quote=“Gi.Am;59262”]3. Indeed random and I stated as much before[/quote] Yay we agree on something :slight_smile:
4. [quote=“Gi.Am;59262”]bodyshot magnitude always, especially if you return fire.[/quote]
Except it’s not always bodyshot magnitude because as we pointed out in point 3 it’s somewhat random and occasionally players get a lucky headshot here and there while returning fire.

I personally don’t need all the control and I’m more than happy to let my teammates take control over many responsibilities for me. What I’m not OK with is the game randomly make decisions that could easily be determined by player skill, and not just mechanical skill but also mental skill. This is supposed to be a competitive teambased FPS. Winning should be decided to the greatest extent possible by the abilities of my team and of the enemy team, not by mechanics outside of any human’s control. If you want to play a game where you’re own abilities don’t matter and the game makes most of the decisions for you, then maybe you’d like to play monopoly or life.


(Gi.Am) #47

argh didn’t want to comment on aimpunch anymore, but can’t stop.

Your example leaves a few key things out:
You had good positioning and initialized the fight, therefore you landed a couple of headshots reducing his HP advantage. When mister heavy finaly turns around he is already suffering aimpunch (considering you are doing headshots, the strong kind) so he is relegated to bodyshots / unrelayable headshots / dodging. Turning a situation of a couple headshots from you, Fragger turns around and pelts you with unpreventable k121 headshots, into a closer matchup because positioning and aimpunch, reduced Fraggers HP and damage advantage.

Now you are absolutely right lowering the effective ttk would promote good positioning just as well.
However they do it in a different way influencing fights in a different way. One increases the overal length of fights (effectively decreasing the damage someone takes, higher ttk) and forcing more movement (to avoid aim penalty), while the other shortens the overall duration of a fight (lowering ttk) and gives players less time to react.

1-4 again Knowing 100% for sure seems quite important hu?
1.Ok two cases. Guy sees you, Guy doesn’t sees you. 1. his reaction time (150-350ms) + aim time after you come into view. 2. time it takes to get the message that he gets shot (Latency) + reaction time + aim time.
2. As I said last hit + whatever the recovery time is. last time getting shot could be: enemy has to reload (known for every gun with an uncertainty depending on how much he had in the mag when the fight started) he is dead. he flees. the amount of time you avoid consecutive shots is higher than the recovery time (depends on the ROF.on slow firing weapon like the blishlok this could very well be dodging a single bullet)
3. -
4. I know that and prefaced as such, but one cornerstone of your argumentation, in all this, is that people by far and large will go for easier bodyshots. If you are right about that the anwser is by far and large bodyshot distance.

You want predictable mechanics to make better risk/benefit calculations (wether on paper or on the fly, through experience) thats natural, everyone does that including myself (as demonstrated by how much I dissect point 1-4). Thing is, if everything has a clear risk/benefit value, everyone knows, what someone is going to do in every situation (the thing with the most benefits and least risk).

The game gets reduced to being better at doing the best thing in every situation better than the other guy.
Uncertainty in well defined dosages (And contrary to your implication I don’t like games that are mostly about luck), means that it becomes harder to do a risk benefit analysis and you have to make quick hard decisions: am I going to risk it, or am I going to play it save. And that adds to a game especially for spectators, atleast in my opinion.

Passing words
“go play other games” You know what I find kinda funny. I by far and large defend the current state of the core mechanics, because I like how the game plays, feels and is balanced (sure there is room for tweaks and additions). I am where I want to be. You on the other hand, seem to struggle with the way how the game currently works and demand changes to stear it in a different “better” direction.

Btw. Dirtybomb is a MOBA or rather a MOBA/FPS hybrid. The devs stated as much, and I don’t like MOBAs general speaking, I mean the main gameplay is indeed nice, but they are putting way too much focus on number crunching (predictable risk/benefit calculation to the max) and overcomplicate it, with arbitrary bullshit.
DB gets it right :smile: .


(Ottah) #48

If they don’t remove the melee slow completely, i dont see myself sticking around (and probably my friends as well) its basicly irritation #1 as we are all melee freaks that hail from CS and TF2