Why I Hate The Melee Changes...

(Gi.Am) #21

Oh don’t worry I’m 100% casual no offence taken. Doesn’t mean that I lack the experience of playing a game in a competive environment tho.

I have my opinions indeed, and I understand and respect where yours comes from.

Listening to the “Pros” however is not always the right thing to do. Sure they are the guys you should look at when it comes to balance, the skill differences between teams are low, amplifing imbalances in the system (wether its weapons, abilities or any other gamemechanic), they are also the place to go, if you want to know in what ways your game can be pushed to the limits (pros are good in finding things that give them an “edge”), And they do quite often have better understanding of mechanics simply by spending more time with the game. Their input is important no doubt.

But they have a tendency to only value a very narrow band of things as skill and want to test their quality only in that narrow band (hailing from arenashooters, tracking headshots and good movement, seems to be the main thing DB Pros see as important).
Pros are control freaks trying to remove everything that clutters the game outside of that band, they push to remove every “randomness” that wrestles, said control of the system from their hand and they tweak everything possible, to improve their chances to compete in that narrow band.

Naturaly they hate/fight every change that tampers with that narrow band or pushes them out of the established comfort zone of that skill set (after all they trained hard to become good under certain conditions and a change forces them to start over, no one likes that).

I mean look at how the game looks under the major of “Pro” setups and look how the game looks out of the box. I said it before SD could fire half their art department and save them alot of time and money. If they simply designed the game from the start like “Pros” play them.

This need for controling the environment/every variable/killing randomness, is not isolated to DB or E-sports it is inherent in every “competive setting”. Look at how olympic sport equipment differs from the “real world equivalent” The ammount of categories to test/compete/specialize only one particular skill/technic.
However all this “control” quite often makes for a boring, less layered/faceted and stagnating game/sport especially for spectators.
Games from an outside perspective get excited when the pros have to suddenly react to unforseen things, when the game isn’t 100% predictable (formula one becomes less boring for example, when the track gets wet).

(Fap Fap Master) #22

Melee doesn’t feel fluent at all no more, it doesn’t flow. It lowers ur sensitivity then raises it back, its so ridiculous, I wish that they would they remove this asap, it has no place here.

(Dirmagnos) #23

Pff, another one of those “skilled players” crap topics. Good things that devs dont listen to them.

(Fleshpound) #24

Good thing that they start not to listen to them since Phantom fine tuning.

(RadicalMac) #25

@srswizard So I’m guessing you want Vassili almost unplayable to get kills with? Considering you have "Disagree"d with each of my comments.

(srswizard) #26

@RadicalMac I disagree with your logic.

^This is only true in sniper vs sniper scenarios. There are situations where you can’t avoid a sniper’s line of sight, and dodging only gets you so far.

Sniper rifles should down players in one HS, but I don’t agree with the gibbing, unless the enemy is on low HP.
One lucky HS shouldn’t be enough to ruin a full spawn wave, in competitive play, but currently it can do just that.

[quote=“RadicalMac;57966”]
I never saw a problem with it at all. I mean it’s completely logical for if your head gets blown off by a sniper rifle, you aren’t coming back up from that. [/quote]
Keep your logic and realism out of my videogames, please.

(RadicalMac) #27

[quote=“srswizard;58266”]
Keep your logic and realism out of my videogames, please.[/quote]

That’s the line you’re going with? Seriously? You take no part in controlling this game, it’s all up to Splash Damage and Nexon and they will honestly do whatever the h e l l they like with their own game. Don’t act like everyone is on your side and feel entitled because you play their game. I was fine with your whole comment as YOUR OPINION on what they should do with it until you said that one line, which is also the only reason I pressed to disagree with it.

(srswizard) #28

I don’t care, it’s just a phrase.
DB isn’t a simulator, or a wannabe simulator, it’s an arena shooter.
I think most would agree anyway, that gameplay and balance should take priority over logic and realism, any time.

(RadicalMac) #29

@srswizard Explain how it’s a problem though, the bolt action snipers can’t just take out every enemy in rapid sucession and the auto-sniper takes multiple shots even on a HS. As well if you get headshotted with a bolt-action I don’t see why it matters if you can be revived or not. SD intended it to work like that, so why are so many people hating it so much? I don’t see how so many people can hate it.

(srswizard) #30

They intended it to be like that, and they have to be right, because they can’t make mistakes, amirite?
I’m not gonna jump into conclusions, but it does sound like you probably don’t have much experience playing this game competitively.

(titaniumCrouton) #31

They intended it to be like that, and they have to be right, because they can’t make mistakes, amirite?
I’m not gonna jump into conclusions, but it does sound like you probably don’t have much experience playing this game competitively.[/quote]

Say they remove insta gimping from the sniper rifles, entirely. Then when you can no longer instagib, medic stacking will become much more prevalent and what will you do to answer the endless chain of revives? Even now that happens plenty within this game and a good sniper is about the only counter to it or some other form of instagib such as a skyhammer toss.

So what would you do to address that issue then, since you’d be removing one of it’s primary answers/counters? Nerf medics? Nerf revive? Increase spawn times? Make a set number of times you can be revived? Please, tell me. The point I am making here is removing such a big feature has consequences and it feels like you’re just blindly raging as opposed to considering what would actually happen if the change was made.

On a side note, I hear so often “Sniping is just soo easy” yet the number of good snipers I see is extremely, extremely low. I just find it a funny contrast where something so easy and so powerful is so far and few between because apparently people aren’t good enough to actually get the headshots they need to be effective.

(srswizard) #32

@titaniumCrouton
Firstly: I’m not raging, I’m calm and collected.
Secondly: I’m not going to further derail this thread from the original topic.
Thirdly: this is not worth my time anyway.

(titaniumCrouton) #33

[quote=“srswizard;58311”]@titaniumCrouton
Firstly: I’m not raging, I’m calm and collected.
Secondly: I’m not going to further derail this thread from the original topic.
Thirdly: this is not worth my time anyway.[/quote]
Translation: No productive counter argument but lacks the constitution to concede the argument.

(Dirmagnos) #34

[quote=“srswizard;58281”]
I think most would agree anyway, that gameplay and balance should take priority over logic and realism, any time.[/quote]

facepalm
God, people stupidity never cease to amaze me.

(RadicalMac) #35

@Dirmagnos “God, people stupidity never cease to amaze me.” There is so much irony in that line. God, some people’s stupidity never ceases to amaze me.*

(KangaJoo) #36

And yet you never seem to support any comment, let alone thread, a competitive player makes. Honestly, every post I’ve seen a competitive player (or in this case someone affiliated with the competitive scene) make, you seem to disagree with.

This isn’t true at all. Yes, we focus on minutia, but we focus on the minutia of everything whether that be making sure we can track the head of a proxy walljumping across our screen or making sure every player knows how to counter every type of hold and push the enemy can make. You talk like all we do is practice getting headshots and trick jumping but in reality most of our practices revolve around building teamwork, working on timings, and developing new takes and counters. Btw, I “hail” from battlefield having played BF3 and BF4 on multiple teams that were top 2 in NA/SA. Contrary to what you seem to believe, we don’t mind being out of our narrow comfort zone.

This isn’t true either. Randomness in and of itself is neither good nor bad and competitive players aren’t control freaks, if we were we wouldn’t do well in team based games would we? What we don’t like, whether or not it involves random or semi random factors, are mechanics that lower the overall skill ceiling. This is why competitive players complain about aimpunch but not spread or spread increase. Both mechanics involve an element of randomness, aimpunch has some random elements to it, but only one is an issue because only one of those lowers the skill ceiling with respect to aiming but the other actually adds depth to the game by making it important to learn how long you can spray for at different ranges before you need to ADS or burst fire. You say competitive players are control freaks but in reality we’re not. We just want the actual players, not the game, to be in control of what happens unless there’s a good reason to give control to the game. For example, having a small amount of random spread does add depth to the game as long as players have ways to work around it. However, If a player kills me in a 1v1, I want it to be because I missed, didn’t move as well as my opponent, or made a bad decision regarding positioning, or made some other mistake, not because the game made me miss and I couldn’t have done anything to prevent it.

OK this is just irrelevant. We use “potato” configs because we want higher framerates and because it gives you an advantage in being able to see enemies. Not only that but a lot of casual players with low end PC’s use those configs too. If we could get the same FPS and visibility with higher settings, we’d use them. Personally, I use the in game settings because compared to BF3 it’s already very easy to spot enemies in this game and because it didn’t increase my FPS when I tried a potato config. Then again I have a good gpu and cpu.

I’d hate to break it to you but that example is still predictable. Just because a wet track isn’t the norm doesn’t mean that drivers and their crew don’t prepare for it and don’t understand how to handle it. It’s not like the track gets wet and suddenly the steering wheels stop working and there was nothing the driver could have done differently (e.g. take the corners a bit slower) to stop himself from losing control. And if the only reason you watch formula is to see people spin out then you should probably find yourself a different sport to watch, mate.

Sorry if I’m coming off as a bit hostile but you’re being extremely presumptuous while demonstrating no knowledge of what it’s like to actually be a top level competitive player.

(Fap Fap Master) #37

Honestly melee was fine before all this sensitvity shit happened, its complete bullshit imo, I should be able to look around when I melee.
Here is my proposal…
Make the melee system like CS, 1 frame hit, only 1 target can get hit, its much more better this way.
OR
Make a hardcap on the amount of players you can stab in 1 swing, eg. Hit 3 people, only 2 get hurt while the 3rd is unaffected.

(robustWonder) #38

[quote=“Fap Fap Master;58516”]Honestly melee was fine before all this sensitvity shit happened, its complete bullshit imo, I should be able to look around when I melee.
Here is my proposal…
Make the melee system like CS, 1 frame hit, only 1 target can get hit, its much more better this way.
OR
Make a hardcap on the amount of players you can stab in 1 swing, eg. Hit 3 people, only 2 get hurt while the 3rd is unaffected.[/quote]

Is there a cap on how many people you can frag with a grenade or hit with airstrike or lazer beaming down from the skies?

There doesn’t need to be a cap, people need to stop stacking on each other trying to disarm a single C4.

I never saw the whole 360 degree macro spin in game, I only saw it on the video. Most people I knew were only doing 90 degree turns. Right now I think melee with a sword is still a joke compared to the Kek.

(Amerika) #39

I can’t say I’m a fan of how the change was implemented but I do understand that a change needed to be put in. There is a chance this was a bandaid fix to prevent the “beyblade” macro before it actually got popular. I think the change could have waited and been addressed at some point in the future when a better change could be worked out. Currently, with my particular setup, I have no issues but I also don’t use the right click knife much or knife in general.

Of course tonight in a scrim I was out of ammo in my LMG and deagle with @PixelTwitch coming around a corner and I possibly could have gotten a knife there since we ran into each other. So maybe I need to fix the hole in my knife game.

(Gi.Am) #40

@ChinaRep I don’t single out pro/competive/veteran players. I simply have a tendency to be the voice of opposition. Pointing out flaws both in argumentations and proposed gameplay changes. You will find me just as often pointing out/argueing with casual/new players why map/merc/game mechanic XY is perfectly fine/balanced and they should simply “get gud” (tho I usually don’t phrase it like that).

Granted I might came out a bit too black and white in my describtion on competive players but I do stand by it that quite a few have a tendency to be like that. And as I pointed out this is quite naturally in all competive enviornments.

When I described the narrow skill band. I didn’t mean that it is the only thing that is important overall, just that it is what is seen as the most important skill for combat. I do agree that tactic/strategy/timing/communication play a big role in what makes a succesful team, and as a matter of fact is the reason why I enjoy watching the pro lvl matches. I simply love seeing how they use, merc synergy, coordinate their attacks and run specific counter attacks.
Don’t care for a Sniper/Fragger constantly whiping the opposition.

Spread and Aimpunch.

Well when a new/casual player jumps in and complains about the weapons being too accurate (especially SMGs), that spread needs to increase, pro/competive/veteran players will point out that this would make the game worse (rightly so), however quite often some of them will also point out, that in their opinion bloom / recoil / ADS shouldn’t be in a competive arena shooter. That it dumbs down the game for casuals and shifts the focus away from headtracking.

Aimpunch is pretty predictable only random thing is the direction your crosshair goes, but how much it moves and how long it takes to recover are predefined (based on damage), when it occurs is 100% predictable (when you get shot). It isn’t lowering the skill ceiling. It’s shifting what skills are important to win a firefight it shifts away from headtracking/higher HP/more Damage, to quicker reflexes/dodging. Aimpunch isn’t the game making you miss. Aimpunch is the game giving your enemy a tool to make you miss and there were things you could have done to prevent it (namely dodging his shots or hitting him faster making it more likely to making him miss aswell).

Just to be clear I do agree 100% that when they introduced the aditional variable that skillset shift was too strong. But I do see the use of it to enrichen combat / solving other gameplay issues when it is calibrated right. Which is why I oppose removing it altogether (and my opinion on melee is by far and large the same).

Visual aimpunch on the other hand I oppose because it divides the playerbase in a bad way (IMO). It lowers the skill ceiling for those that know to ignore it (they only have to worry about headtracking) while keeping the floor high for those that don’t (they falsely readjust their aim based on screenshake making them miss).

Potato configs, sure some need them to make the game playable, some use them to get that 1-2 fps increase that will transform them from mediocre to godlike and some use them to make seeing enemies easier. Sometimes they are used for a combination of all 3. Some don’t use them at all. They do give undeniable an advantage (especially when nothing is locked) and thats why they are used. And that was my point competive players (once again not all but quite a few, and casuals do use them for the same reasons) have a tendency to value performance/gameplay advantages over visual fidelity. A developer could use that to their advantage and create a game that is visually highly optimized for competive play and by doing it save themself a lot of work/money if they wanted to.

Formula one.
Racing teams are propably the biggest competive “control freaks” there are, the calculations, predictions, training they do is staggering (and often quite interesting). Results in good weather conditions (not to hot, not to wet) quite often are decided at the start because teams are very good at controlling the actual race. Weather extremes (too hot/wet) are quite often a big ? and will show which driver is good at adapting to changing conditions or if that driver can only follow the set and trained optimum.
Likewise formula one has to constantly change rules, introduce new ways to make the actual race more interesting, to push teams out of their highly optimized comfortzone.