Why do so many players not push

[Humbugsen]

b) provide an alternative mode for veterans to get their warm-up / aim practice fix. People don’t seem to like the idea of a brainless deathmatch mode, but this is exactly why we should have one. Ideally with random spawns that constantly put you in front of other players, like the CSGO deathmatch mode, and don’t even record team score. Make it clear that it’s not a “real” mode but only for practice and warmup.

If any mode like this, i would like a brainful practice mode.
The ET headshot map comes to my mind.
A simple 1v1 / 2v2 arena map where you can pull some levers to change terrain and just practice aiming.

[Szakalot]

this very forum is filled with veterans, who care about objectives, teamplay and winning.

Its just that the game is a little TOO well designed. Having 2 good players + bunch of nabs vs. 1 good player + bunch of nabs is a steamroll for the former. Kills pile up on top off each other, the better team will stay alive and mow down the weaker players one by one with vicious flanks and backrages.

[Mustang]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Glottis-3D again.

[Violator]

As a ‘veteran’ pub player from alpha who rarely plays comps (don’t have the time + the skill level of the current teams we have is way above mine) I don’t really agree with Zenity’s compartmentalisations of pub players. I don’t find that many comp players going pub purely for aim warmup, they are usually the ones doing the objective or getting frustrated that no-one else is. From a comp point of view you want to practise timings getting from A to B and other tactics rather than just shooting. Currently though as Szakalot stated above, it only takes 2 or 3 good shooters on one team to destroy the other, though a lot of this is down to positioning and tactics.

[Zenity]

It seems I got misunderstood in some ways.

First of all, it’s hard to call anybody a true veteran yet, the game isn’t that old yet. Of course it is all relative, but it will only get worse over time. Also I am thinking of serious competitive players, not just players who have been playing for a long time.

Second, the competitive scene isn’t in a place yet where you can play scrims, pugs, or at least ranked matchmaking 100% or even most of the time. So of course people still play publics “for real”, but this will change eventually and then the only reason those players have to join pubs, is to warm up or get their aim up to speed before playing a “proper” game.

That said, the main issue caused by these players isn’t so much that they don’t care about the objective (though it’s still true), but that they severely unbalance the teams which makes proper teamplay impossible anyway. Right now pubs suffer severely from experienced competitive players unbalancing the teams because they don’t usually have any other way to play. This particular problem will go away as matchmaking etc becomes more active, but the problem of warm ups is going to remain. We can deal with this when we get to this point, but there can’t be any harm in taking this into consideration already.

[Szakalot]

[QUOTE=Zenity;528956]It seems I got misunderstood in some ways.

First of all, it’s hard to call anybody a true veteran yet, the game isn’t that old yet. Of course it is all relative, but it will only get worse over time. Also I am thinking of serious competitive players, not just players who have been playing for a long time.

Second, the competitive scene isn’t in a place yet where you can play scrims, pugs, or at least ranked matchmaking 100% or even most of the time. So of course people still play publics “for real”, but this will change eventually and then the only reason those players have to join pubs, is to warm up or get their aim up to speed before playing a “proper” game.

That said, the main issue caused by these players isn’t so much that they don’t care about the objective (though it’s still true), but that they severely unbalance the teams which makes proper teamplay impossible anyway. Right now pubs suffer severely from experienced competitive players unbalancing the teams because they don’t usually have any other way to play. This particular problem will go away as matchmaking etc becomes more active, but the problem of warm ups is going to remain. We can deal with this when we get to this point, but there can’t be any harm in taking this into consideration already.[/QUOTE]

this is why we NEED min. lvl servers. Min lvl 7 or min lvl 12 servers would give us ‘veterans’ a place to play, where we do not destroy the poor newbies. Presently most games consist of 2-5 players at +10lvls and bunch of 1-6 dudes, who get smashed and trashed to no end. It also makes games really hard to balance when the skill levels vary so greatly.

Sure, there are plenty of ‘weak’ high level players, but they its A HUGE difference to not have amazing aim but know maps&classes&objectives vs. a newcomer who doesnt have either of those things (and probably uses ADS for shooting - i encounter at least 2-3 people per day who try to use ADS in close combat)

[Ashog]

Most games nowadays gratify camping (thx camperstrike). Only perhaps some Qlive or crazy TF2 dudes would push even if new to DB. As easy as it sounds.

[NeroKirbus]

[QUOTE=Humbugsen;528946]If any mode like this, i would like a brainful practice mode.
The ET headshot map comes to my mind.
A simple 1v1 / 2v2 arena map where you can pull some levers to change terrain and just practice aiming.

[/QUOTE]

They had a map designated to this stuff back in alpha. It’s a shame they removed it.

[Chux]

The levels don’t mean that much, I’ve seen lvl 15+ people who don’t have a clue what they are doing.

[BioSnark]

Sure, I’ve seen lvl ~2 players who are veterans of objective based games have a good idea of what to do.

Level’s aren’t always a solid metric of game knowledge but they are usually a general indicator.

[PinkFrog]

I’m always happy to see newby servers when trying out a new game.
It’s important to me to have a sandbox where i can try out new tactics or learn a new merc without having to be my best constantly (or feeling the urge to try anyway).

So, there’s that.

I wonder how it will be possible to teach new players that dying is not per se a bad thing and that a good k/d ration doesn’t mean you’re good at the game?!

[shibbyuk]

[QUOTE=PinkFrog;529009]
I wonder how it will be possible to teach new players that dying is not per se a bad thing and that a good k/d ration doesn’t mean you’re good at the game?![/QUOTE]

I don’t know if it’s getting off topic or not, but I think that you just shouldn’t display the K/D to everyone at the end of a game. Keep it private. Instead, you could show some sort of mini rating for the 4 main aspects of that game that you earnt XP for: Combat, Support, Objective and erm… sentence fail.

I do really believe a practise / sandbox mode is an important need, for lots of reasons.

[PinkFrog]

I think the k/d ratio is what keeps players from pushing. Pushing equals potential death. Which is what they want to avoid at all costs.

I like the idea to display the k/d somewhere less prominent. Sure, it’s interesting info, but not THAT interesting. Especially for gadget-mercs and for everybody on the attacking side basically

[Amerika]

[QUOTE=PinkFrog;529014]I think the k/d ratio is what keeps players from pushing. Pushing equals potential death. Which is what they want to avoid at all costs.

I like the idea to display the k/d somewhere less prominent. Sure, it’s interesting info, but not THAT interesting. Especially for gadget-mercs and for everybody on the attacking side basically :P[/QUOTE]

K/D has not displayed during the match and hasn’t been for quite some time now (I think since the move to Steam). Also, your account ratio for K/D was removed as well. You only see K/D at the end of a side on Stopwatch and at the end of the match.

I think, instead of removing things from the scoreboard, it instead gets enhanced. K/D is there but you also have stats for supplies given, heartbeats sensed, airstrikes thrown/hit with, revives, health regen, gib damage/finishes etc. Give us tabs with stats like this which are definitely being recorded but simply not being displayed.

It will make some medics go for revives more or heal more. Some Arty and Skyhammer players will be certain to throw out ammo for more people than just themselves. It’s visual representation of a positive contribution that isn’t tied to kills or deaths and it also explains why some people have the scores they have.

For example, I would know why a Vassili had crazy score. He not only got a bunch of headshots but had great heartbeat sensor placement. It would give me numbers that could help people improve their play. Sure, it won’t fix everyone but it will fix those who want to learn by giving them fairly easy to digest information.

[Szakalot]

It will make some medics go for revives more or heal more. Some Arty and Skyhammer players will be certain to throw out ammo for more people than just themselves. It’s visual representation of a positive contribution that isn’t tied to kills or deaths and it also explains why some people have the scores they have.

It would definitely be great to display those ‘best medic’ ‘most revives’ ‘most ammo given’ ‘most heartbeats sensed’ etc. displayed, like in W:ET and QW.

Naturally, only if there are at least 2 players with overlapping abilities (so a single Vassili and no other spotter on the server would not display ‘most spottings’ but one Vassili and one RedEye would).

[phineasfreak]

This:

It would definitely be great to display those ‘best medic’ ‘most revives’ ‘most ammo given’ ‘most heartbeats sensed’ etc. displayed, like in W:ET and QW.

and remove the displaying of K/D or put it as suggested in #33 and #34. Sometimes it literally feels as if some (attacking) players believe deaths/respawns cost money and rather play hide’n’shoot. The biggest “incentive” to quite a few players still seems to be having the most frags.

[Humbugsen]

What really helped teamplay in ET was the progression system.
As medic you wanted to heal teammates to get more packs at lvl 2 and the big revive at lvl 3
Field ops wanted to give ammo to get the bigger airstrike and ammo packs

I just like stats, would be a shame to remove K/D entirely. Would like even more stats like damage given/received, healing given/received, gibs, revives, accuracy, miles traveled xD etc…

Just need more reasons for teamplay and objectives that are actually fun to do!

Would also help if more people would play medics, I think we really need more medics!

[chenapan]

or maybe ppl dont push because it feels stupid to push ?
i mean we, as human have a tendency to do stupid things, but not to repeat it more than say 3-4 times in a row… maybe the lack of options for pushing (routes ?, openness ? meaningfull secondary objectives ) leads to the feeling that if we continue to push, nothing will changes,(and it is probably true) so ppl start to stay back.

i think if you offer player more options this behavior will change… i dont think you should count on “education” but rather to offer mechanics and incentive in the gamedesign itself wich will lead to a different behaviour from the player.

[Protekt1]

[QUOTE=chenapan;529137]or maybe ppl dont push because it feels stupid to push ?
i mean we, as human have a tendency to do stupid things, but not to repeat it more than say 3-4 times in a row… maybe the lack of options for pushing (routes ?, openness ? meaningfull secondary objectives ) leads to the feeling that if we continue to push, nothing will changes,(and it is probably true) so ppl start to stay back.

i think if you offer player more options this behavior will change… i dont think you should count on “education” but rather to offer mechanics and incentive in the gamedesign itself wich will lead to a different behaviour from the player.[/QUOTE]

It isn’t stupid to push, it is how you win games. This really has nothing to do with map design, if you don’t push you will always lose.

[chenapan]

It isn’t stupid to push, it is how you win games. This really has nothing to do with map design, if you don’t push you will always lose.

why do you bother to answer to say nonsense ?
it is stupid to bang your head on the wall to break it, even if eventually it will… it is not stupid however to get take a hammer and destroy it…; see what i mean ? as human beings we are supposed to have the ability to think and to try different things…
i just said it feels stupid to push in db because it lacks option to make the game move forward, and this lack of option is entirely related to map design