Why do people hate the new system so much?

[frostyvampire]

[quote=“B. Montiel;193868”]Don’t forget that the voice of someone disagreeing will tend to be more noisy than the voice of someone who is happy or don’t bother.

As of the new crafting system + potential trading system tied together discussion, I guess that’s a draw, because the higher cost for cobalt is tempered by the lower rng. Looking at how many cobalts I see in-game right now, there’ll be way too many cards available on the market compared to the actual demand. So I still don’t know how cobalt could be sold for more than 5/8 bucks… Yes, there is an intrinsic value for items, but if the said item is flooded by too many offers on the market, this price will only go lower… Just for the comparison, TF2 or CS:GO highly valued items have (or had) skyrocketting prices because they are distributed at an incredibly low rate, which only leaves less than 300 people having them worldwide. They hit a massive fail on dota 2 because even quite rare items were dropped way too easily. In this game, I’ve rarely seen items over 2/3 bucks for that reason.[/quote]

This is why the new system increased the value of cobalts and golds. Cobalts now cost almost double than before, which makes them double as rare and double rarity means double value.
And because they are still not rare enough we still don’t have trading. I think SD has more plans on making cobalts more value-able and rarer. Maybe we will even see new rarites and new stuff in the future. Such as cosmetics.
Maybe we will have a 1% chance to get an obsidian card only out of elite cases. Imagine obsidian 383 Sparks price. And maybe equipment cases will become more rare and cost more in the store. So instead of having a 1/3 chance drop chance they will have a 10% chance and will cost 5,000 credits in the store (just an example, don’t hate me I know it’s dumb). There are tons of possibilities and when DB is out of beta and trading comes out, cobalts might be worth as much as covert (red) skins in csgo

[Daergar1]

[quote=“FrostyVampire;193835”]@Daergar
And then the entire economy would crash before we even got trading.
RNG is needed to keep the economy balanced.

Imagine you open a csgo case and you get the option to pick what knife you want. Everyone would take karambits and karambit safari mesh would cost less than gut knife safari mesh[/quote]

The entire problem stems from the fact that we don’t have skins, we have loadouts which alter the actual gameplay. Which is wildly different from what texture is draped over an object.

To be honest, I did forget that we’re supposed to have trading implemented. I really don’t see how that will work unless DB suddenly gains massive fame and widespread acclaim (which it won’t, given the rate of development).

I’d much rather have them give us the option to pay money straight up for the stuff we want now, while we actually play the game. This is not cs, it will never be cs, that much is clear by now.

On a dreamy note, imagine a modernized ET with cosmetics? Gawd, I’d rock a modified fueldump 24/7 like in the good old days.

[frostyvampire]

@Daergar
Well first of all, they HAVE TO do something about people making alts for the free gold card. A simple solution will be make you unable to trade until you spend at least 10$ ingame or purchase the starter pack DLC and maybe lock trading so you can only trade/sell on market silver, gold, cobalt and event cards (promotional items such as Humble Bundle cards, obsidian cards, leads, irons, bronzes, trinkets, cases, boosters and all those stuff will be untradable)

Also they will have to increase the rarity of cobalt cards (and maybe equipment cases too) or add a new rarity which will only be available through elite cases and have a 1% chance of being dropped so they will be expensive.
There’s still time for this to happen.

While I agree it will be nice to be able to get whatever you want with money, but then you are screwed when you quit the game, I’m a retard and spent ~250$ in the game (I regret it but I can’t undo what is already done) and if there’s no trading I won’t be able to make my money back when I quit the game.
I will also be forever stuck with a BL32 cobalt shard Fletcher, so many people want this card but I hate the Blishlok and don’t play Fletcher too often.
I know it won’t be csgo, and I don’t want it to be csgo. But we can agree that Valve have a much better developing team than Splash Damage and Nexon, and they should take some of the things Valve does in their games to Dirty Bomb, I’m not talking about gamemodes and maps (we all know how badly Execution failed) but the more cosmetic and economic stuff

[BulletKin]

[quote=“FrostyVampire;31333”][left]Sure it’s expensive, but most of us already have some of the cobalts we wanted and if you are smart you would’ve traded up all your golds to cobalts before the new crafting system release.[/left]
[/quote]
You understand that this is like saying <<new players can go f**k themselves>>?
And also, this is only the last of a big list of identical comments of players that like the new system only cause it fits with their accounts, cause it’s good for them (which is different from “it’s good for all the players”).
I’ve read (and heard) a hundred good logical reasonings about why the new system is bad, and after i found positive comments that’d be summed up as <<i like it, just because>>, this is the first post that tries to point out reasons, and (i’m sorry, but) it fails.
Every single reason pointed out IS NOT something about the system itself, but some really indirect effect that we don’t really need at all (or we have to avoid), such as:

-“these high costs will encourage people to go for mercs rather than skins”
Nope! People already buy them, in case you didn’t notice, cause they can’t f**kin play without mercs! Mercs are various and interesting, we don’t need to make every other aspect of the game bad to convince people buy more of them!

-“RNG is needed to keep the economy balanced”
Nope! That’s like sayin <>.
RNG is pure randomness, so how can pure randomness keep an economical system balanced? it’s nosense!

-“The new system has less RNG”
Nope! With the new system you go from lead to a rarity skipping all the rarities in the middle. In the old system you had a lot of possibilities to find a good loadout in the process, now there’s only one selection of the loadout, so far more RNG.

-“RNG is reduced from 1/9 to 1/3”
Nope! We can’t see the future in a crystal ball, so we have to judge the system as it is: weapon kits are ridiculously rare items in an already rare crate. It’s just impossible to have enough of them. Also, even if you reduce to 1/3 choosin the weapon, you can still find a crappy card just as a good one. Primary weapon is not the only important thing. Loadouts are not just “skins”. They have secondary weapons, melee weapons and augmentations, which together are even more important than the primary alone.

I’m sorry for the wall of text, but this speech is not simple. There’s a lot to say and discuss, and i don’t think that staying silent will help us.

If you think i’m angry, you’re right: i love this game and it makes me angry to see it in this condition.

[frostyvampire]

@BulletKin

[quote=“BulletKin;194808”]
You understand that this is like saying <<new players can go f**k themselves>>?
And also, this is only the last of a big list of identical comments of players that like the new system only cause it fits with their accounts, cause it’s good for them (which is different from “it’s good for all the players”).
[/quote]I never said it. But people always complain “SD fucks up the veterans and only cares about noobs” and when they finally release an update that is good for the vets because they profited a lot they say “but now noobs will never get cobalts”.

[quote=“BulletKin;194808”]
-“these high costs will encourage people to go for mercs rather than skins”
Nope! People already buy them, in case you didn’t notice, cause they can’t f**kin play without mercs! Mercs are various and interesting, we don’t need to make every other aspect of the game bad to convince people buy more of them!
[/quote]Yeah but people will now try to get all the mercs before getting a loadout card, previously most people got a cobalt (or tried to) before they owned 10 mercs, now it will encourage them to get all 19 mercs before getting a card better than bronze

[quote=“BulletKin;194808”]
-“RNG is needed to keep the economy balanced”
Nope! That’s like sayin <>.
RNG is pure randomness, so how can pure randomness keep an economical system balanced? it’s nosense!
[/quote]That’s not the same at all. I’ll use the same example as I used before, if you could choose what knife you unbox from a csgo case, high tier knives wouldn’t be rare and a karambit sapphire will cost less than gut knife safari mesh because nobody will say “I want to get gut safari from that case”. Good items are rare, bad items are not. This is how the economy stays balanced and it has to stay that way. Removing RNG will destroy the economy and nobody wants this to happen, we all want trading to come out so we can safely trade and make profit and cash out with our good cards when we quit

[quote=“BulletKin;194808”]
-“The new system has less RNG”
Nope! With the new system you go from lead to a rarity skipping all the rarities in the middle. In the old system you had a lot of possibilities to find a good loadout in the process, now there’s only one selection of the loadout, so far more RNG.

-“RNG is reduced from 1/9 to 1/3”
Nope! We can’t see the future in a crystal ball, so we have to judge the system as it is: weapon kits are ridiculously rare items in an already rare crate. It’s just impossible to have enough of them. Also, even if you reduce to 1/3 choosin the weapon, you can still find a crappy card just as a good one. Primary weapon is not the only important thing. Loadouts are not just “skins”. They have secondary weapons, melee weapons and augmentations, which together are even more important than the primary alone.
[/quote]It does reduce RNG. Weapon kits being rare will keep the economy balanced, if weapon kits costed 1,000 credits and you only needed 1 for cobalt, the economy would crash. There are WAY too many stuff that can crash the economy and we need to avoid them, a small mistake and boom 383 shard Sparks is 2$

[Drac0rion]

RNG still doesn’t keep the economy fixed, it’s just a random chance.

If Equipment cases lost all RNG and would be only lead for example, Cobalt would still remain the highest rarity without the RNG due to it’s value from crafting.

RNG is not the vital element here. It’s literally just lottery to have a chance at higher rarity, with or without it Cobalts are made to be the highest rarity either way.

[frostyvampire]

@Dracorion
Yeah but MO11 shard Vassili would cost way more than some fragment PDP useless Vassili.

Cobalts will be the most expensive, but good cobalts will be more expensive than shit cobalts. This is something that has to stay this way

[Klaus_Morgenholz]

The new system lacks the feeling of progression and discovery the old one had.
With the old one, you would be gradually upgrading your inventory, and getting new low-tier cards every day, turning them from lead into iron, then into bronze and so on, and finding nice surprises along the way.
Hell, sometimes I play a bronze Phoenix, while keeping my cobalt one.
The new system makes a mid-tier card you won’t use essentially worthless, because you’ll have to recycle it and then pay the full price for the next tier IN ONE SHOT.
This makes the game feel more grindy and less rewarding at the same time IMHO.
For me, it’s not the price. It’s the feeling of it.

[BulletKin]

I never said it. But people always complain “SD @$!# up the veterans and only cares about noobs” and when they finally release an update that is good for the vets because they profited a lot they say “but now noobs will never get cobalts”.

This is not a matter of “it’s a great update for new players/ it’s a great update for veterans”. If you create a new system, a new game mechanic, it must be good for all. If it’s good only for veterans, that mechanic is wrong. It has to be equal. So you can’t say something like “but most of us have already the cards or at least have traded up them before update”. Sayin so, you’re admitting that the system itself is not good and that is good only for those who will not use it, cause they already have the cards.

Yeah but people will now try to get all the mercs before getting a loadout card, previously most people got a cobalt (or tried to) before they owned 10 mercs, now it will encourage them to get all 19 mercs before getting a card better than bronze

I think that someone should do what he wants to do, no need to force people in getting all the mercs. Most important: as i said: we are judging a system, don’t talk about secondary effects that it can cause, talk about the system itself, about how it works and about it’s values.

That’s not the same at all. I’ll use the same example as I used before, if you could choose what knife you unbox from a csgo case, high tier knives wouldn’t be rare and a karambit sapphire will cost less than gut knife safari mesh because nobody will say “I want to get gut safari from that case”. Good items are rare, bad items are not. This is how the economy stays balanced and it has to stay that way. Removing RNG will destroy the economy and nobody wants this to happen, we all want trading to come out so we can safely trade and make profit and cash out with our good cards when we quit

The economy stays balanced because there are items rarer than others…and so, better than others. The problem is that you can’t imagine a way to make items rarer and better that is not RNG. Rng, as i said, it’s randomness, so it will give the player a really good loadout or a bad one rolling a dice. That’s not fair. In this condiction someone could stay forever without good loadouts and someone could find a lot of them. That’s not a “balanced” economy, it’s just an economy that survives damaging the ones who are unlucky.

Said so, how to make rarer and more valuable items? just raise crafting costs to reach high rarities, but at the same time, givin the certainty that for that reaaally high cost you’ll get the precise loadout. This is fair and “balanced”, when you’re goinna sell it, you’ll obtain more resources…cause you spent more resources to make it! So hard to figure out?

[quote=“FrostyVampire;194812”]
It does reduce RNG. Weapon kits being rare will keep the economy balanced, if weapon kits costed 1,000 credits and you only needed 1 for cobalt, the economy would crash. There are WAY too many stuff that can crash the economy and we need to avoid them, a small mistake and boom 383 shard Sparks is 2$[/quote]

It’s a phrase sooooo generic…mixed with the same nosense “rng helps economy” thing of the other phrases, that there’s really no way to answer to this…it’s also a bit dishonest, because you’re pretending that there are no other options than “RNG” and “best cobalt for 1 dolalr”.

Few days before the update, i spent hours tryin to explain the same thing to another player that was pretending that “RNG it’s the only thing that can give longevity to the game”.
So, apparently, it’s a common issue. I wonder: it’s so hard to understand the concept of “merit”. If i spend days on db, i gain credits and save them in high quantity, i deserve a good card more than someone who did nothing for earn credits. With RNG he can obtain the most valuable card anyway. With a system based on merit people get good cards only if they worked for them.

[The_N00Ba]

From what I have noticed the some people do miss the feeling of the old system. The old system was far more linear in progression. You saw your creations a lot more from my experiences. Seeing what you got was part of the fun. Sadly there was also a lot of extra card making in my opinion at least as far as using leads and irons.

I feel the usefulness of the mid tier cards is determined by the player. The player now has complete control over how they craft their cards. You no longer are required to use lower cards to make the next higher one. it feels to me like you have more choice, but not everyone finds that appealing. Some people do need more structure and direction.

I think there is less you have to do to get the cards you want that this emptiness must also be the same feeling a lot of other people are having. Something might be need to added to fill this emptiness. i don’t know though.

[Daergar1]

Something that I am sure I’ve simply missed; people advocating RNG in the economy need to remember the booster packs.

The most basic, and no doubt viable, monetization is pay to skip. Someone wants to grind at no cost for time Y in order to gain credit amount X; cool!

Someone wants to pay to cut time Y in half or more by paying money, supporting the game and letting the first player continue playing for free; cool!

Now balance the card costs and add even more cosmetics (weapons and perks do not fit into a monetization scheme). We need masks, hats, shiny pieces of clothing and weapons, special effects, tea-bag VR smells (pine scent a given favorite), the works.

There are very simply systems that work. Warframe comes to mind, I had no problem buying platinum currency, especially at a daily login reward of 50% cost, just to get a shiny frame to focus my grind on, unlock some slots and other QoL things. Same with Path of Exile, no problem supporting the game for just QoL stuff, again at a random flash sale.

So easy to entice us to fork over money for things we see having actual value. Adding RNG to that is not for me, though I know it is for some. If I want to gamble, I hit a casino.

Or charge a retail price for the game and let’s move on. Because I’d rather play a good game above all else.

[yenku]

DISCLAIMER: I like Fragment Cobalt, Red Swiss Gold too, I’m more than happy with my bronzes. I play because the game is fun.

As much as I hate RNG, and I hate it to death, it has its role in an economy and I quite understand what FrostyVampire said. But, as someone said…Bulletkin maybe, I don’t think RNG make an economy balanced at all. Also DB is not CSGO, Loadout Cards are not just Skins and we all know this. We should.

At the same time I fail to see this “economy”, because as Raziel said, it was June I guess, there is, actually, no concrete plans (might means, not a single line of code) for a trading system. There is no economy and no economy to crash. There will be ? who knows.
So what kind of value are “we” looking to trade ?

Got a Weapon kit from my last Arsenal Crate, which I can’t use in crafting a bronze card.
Means I need at least another one, if RNG wants, for a Silver craft, which I won’t do.

I would like a Cobalt absolutely not because is “rare”, but because I like how it looks.
I did spent a good amount, imho, of money on this game (+400$) and I would see no problems, seeing the current state of the game, in being able to pay $$$ to get what I want.

If RNG is here to trick me in spend money over time, no thanks. Won’t spend another cent on RNG.

I’ll still playing DB because is fun and I like this game, for its gameplay, a lot.