What are you willing to lose?


(Maca) #1

So, I actually had idea of making a thread about this for quite some while ago, but never felt like doing it until Anti said this

I am not entirely certain if a similar thread has been made previously, nor am I sure if this is productive, because one might argue that this whole forum is made partly to discuss this specific topic. But I still wished to have some concentrated ideas about this.

When comparing DB to [insert your favorite perhaps SD games here], what aspects of those games do you definitely want DB to follow, and what do you think the SD staff can “innovate” upon.


I’ll start.
Here are the major ideas I would want to see taken from previous games, but I’ve also mentioned how these things could be improved upon.

  • Fluid movement: I want to be able to move freely, I’m even willing to compromise overall speed so that it’s more noobfriendly, I don’t care about strafejumping, just get rid of these accelerations and make the movement same no matter which direction you’re going, sideways, backwards, whatever. And drop all the slowdowns when doing simple things, like dropping packs. And I don’t want weapons in the game whose main function is stopping the player, like concussion nades.

  • Objective classes: Keep objectives tightly tied to a class, even if it’s “artificial”, the tension of having only one class be able to do something is vital in these games. I would even wish to differ from previous SD games, by asking that there would be a forward spawn in a map more often than not, and only one class would be able to do them, this could be the objective function of this class, like engy has the main objective function currently and in previous games

  • Low spread: I don’t care about anything else about the gunplay, I just miss the old type of thinking that where you point, there you hit, almost no matter how you’re moving or how long you’ve hold the LMB down. If you don’t want to get rid of it entirely then make the spread creep return to zero incredibly fast.

  • Explosives: I’m not asking for CoD spamfest, just some more ways to use explosives. Currently the nades are really really good, they take consideration but get the job done, but I would still wish to see more ways to deliver those explosives where they need to go. Big part of the awesomeness of the previous games was the use of explosives to actively deny areas (not mines in this case). This could also be very handy when thinking of different types of weapons.

  • Spawn waves and timers: This is something that was big part in creating the awesome SD games, the fact that you spawn with the rest of your team and the enemy does the same, makes the game feel much more coherent. It also makes the game much more intense when the waves collide. Some might think the /killing is cheap, but for comp it was awesome, and for pub it was no problem. If it was integrated more shamelessly to the game so that some functions, like replenishing certain things, worked around respawning if required team mates weren’t around, it could create this RTS or MOBA type of thinking of resources, which is almost unprecedented in FPS. This could be used to make the mercs different aside from weapons and items. The players could be educated about respawning and encouraged to ponder the possibility of /kill in promotional things like tutorials and trailers.
    I also would like to play with the idea, that even the enemy spawn timer was shown.

And here are the things I consider “fair game”, these are the things I could let the SD innovate all they want, actually I WANT them to change them from how they are currently and how they were in the past.

  • Classes: atm I am, how could I say, not enamored by the classes, they feel artificial. Partly because of gameplay mechanics, but partly just because there is this notion that soldier, medic, engy, fop and covop are the roles of the classes and that’s how it should be. If for a moment the traditional class boundaries were forgotten, and we would just think how they would play together, how they depend on eachother and how they do the objectives, would something more interesting be created?
    If you want to give every class health regen why have a class dedicated to making that health regen faster? Why not concentrate that class on revives and something like adrenaline, extra buff? Why give the sniping class the tools for reconnaissance, since in these maps they would be much more effective on people who are on the frontline? These are just some personal issues taken out of the blue, but the point is that I wouldn’t mind if SD completely revamped the class system to bring more balance and sense to the classes. Because currently the mechanics of the game and the classes do not fit, the classes do not feel really unique and necessary.
    Also, by doing this the respawn timers could be integrated better withing the classes, like I mentioned above.

  • Weapons: There is only one thing I want, low spread, aside from that you can use all the balancing mechanics you know, and make even more! I’ve said this previously but why not have more unique, perhaps “gimmicky” guns. Double barreled rifle that requires one or both of the shots be headshot to get a kill with two bullets, MG that has higher RoF and accuracy the longer you shoot, a gun that occupies both primary and secondary slot because you have essentially a very low clip pistol ducktaped to it (not literally, but in function, the “pistol” could be built in the gun), a panzerfaust that lets out a huge beep when it’s getting shot so almost everyone hears it. Currently the guns are very bland, they have no features and no “wow” effect, and they hardly differentiate from each other. And I don’t want to go back to the old way where only one gun was the de-facto gun.


There, naturally this doesn’t include all aspects of a full game, but these are the most important gameplay related things to me that I could come up with immediately. And some of it was most likely just daydreaming that I wanted to get out.

So, read that Anti quote and tell, what are you willing to loose? And what not?


(tokamak) #2

I only have one holy cow:

Class depth and wacky tools

In the end this is SD’s flagship. No other game has this handled it this well but other games are homing in on the innovation of fun abilities to use. I feel this position is threatened by the way the rest of the community is enamoured with shooting duels. And yes, these two ideals ARE in direct conflict with each other. Every bit that gives a player power that doesn’t involve a gun is a bit that chips away at the importance of shooting. The problem I have with basic shooting is that other games are already doing this and they’re doing it amazingly well. Don’t try to be another Counterstrike, you won’t beat Counterstrike.

I want enormous strong class synergy, I want trumph cards and I want toys to concoct and improvise the most outrageous strategies. I want passive abilities, active abilities, it doesn’t have to be ultra realistic it may be ‘game magic’ but it’s essential for a game like this.

Shooting and objectives are only a means to a far more important end: Outsmarting your opponent in the most creative and humiliating ways possible.


(warbie) #3

Just to balance things out - I want a playing field as level as possible, where each kill is earned and each death is deserved. It should be all about team play, movement and aiming skill, with little advantage between classes when it comes to lethality and the fewest possible no. of items and skills required to allow this. I also don’t want another Counter Strike - the shooting in that sucks :wink:

I pretty much agree with the op - fluid movement is key and low spread is needed for precision in combat. Also maps that encourage teams to clash head to head at choke points rather than spread out tdm stylee.


(Anti) #4

I think just as interesting for us to know would be what bits sucked in RTCW, ET, ETQW and all those games you guys love? What could have improved them?

I’m a huge fan of Tribes 2 and played it for years, some of the stuff that got changed when Tribes Ascend came along (spawning in kit, without using inventory stations) had me absolutely spitting feathers. Then I played the game for 3-4 weeks, in clan matches and pick-ups, and I came to the realization that it sucked the proverbial nut to spend so much time loading out in T2 just to be able to get fighting. At the time I’d never even thought about it, just accepted what it was despite it being, well, dull :slight_smile:

I’m sure there must be elements like this that occurred in each of the games you folks often reference and they’d be as handy for us to know about if we’re trying to make a better objective based shooter.


(Maca) #5

ET

  • The classes were good, but there was always the feeling that they could be better. How situational soldier and covert was, although satchel was awesome.
  • Medic running away healing himself. I never liked this, I’m not saying people who did it did wrong, it’s only natural people would do it if something like that is possible in a game, but I made it as a personal rule to never run away healing, at least not from 1vs1 fights.
  • Sometimes spawn camping was irritating
  • On some areas of some maps the air strike spam got irritating

These are the only negative feelings I can remember from the time I played.
As for retrospective “how things could’ve been better”, I sort of wrote that in the OP.
As for your Tribes experience, although it isn’t entirely comparable as DB isn’t a sequel to ET, I’ve yet to have that type of feeling that a change that’s been made in DB has made the overall game experience better. Basically to me, in DB there are the things it took from previous games, which were both good and bad (classes), and the changes that were made didn’t make the game better. That’s why I’ve thought that DB is a slowdown version of ET, there aren’t actually many changes to the deep mechanics, but almost every change that was made is a gameplay slowdown.
The non-escort DB maps feel really, really nice, that’s the only thing where DB shines in my mind.

I mean I know I’m just probably talking ****, knowing nothing about game design, but to me there are two things mainly in a shooter: there are the deep mechanics, and then there are the gameplay mechanics. Deep mechanics are actually very similar when comparing DB and ET, but aside from doing objectives, the ET deep mechanics weren’t perfect (for example classes). By saying that change the classes, get better weapons, incorporate the respawntimer in a revolutionary way, I’m suggesting changes to the deep mechanics that don’t interfere with the most important deep mechanic: class based team objective game.
The biggest differences between ET and DB are in the gameplay mechanics, specifically everything is slower in DB.

But as said, I’m not after ET2, but the things that were changed, and the things that weren’t were partly wrong IMO


(Valdez) #6

The game I loved was RTCW, the reasons I think this game is better than ET/ETQW/DB.
+Less Stages (meaning games can still be won until around 0:30 left on the clock, resulting in intense games more often)
+Defenses more about holding positions (always have LT / Fop for ammo)
+Spawn times mean teams can be caught with “bad spawns” (generally 30/30 spawns)
+Most maps have doc runs for main objective by players, which leads to more doc saves etc. (resulting in intense games more often)
+All maps are original maps and work competitively

To me RTCW was as close to a masterpiece as I have ever seen/played, however there were a few negatives.
-Lean
-No Antilag (debatable)
-punkbuster

RTCW really did not have many things to get gay’d by, maybe besides the panzer, but the panzer adds so much excitement for spectators. rtcw did not have, mines/stealing enemies uni’s/prone/mortars/rifle nade. and kept everything extremely simple, which is the reason I loved this game.

Just wanted to point out RTCW was by far the best spectator fps game made. With twitch.tv blowing up these days I think it would be a very wise decision to take the elements that made RTCW a great spectator game and implement them into DB.


(slaG) #7

[QUOTE=Valdez;433001]The game I loved was RTCW, the reasons I think this game is better than ET/ETQW/DB.
+Less Stages (meaning games can still be won until around 0:30 left on the clock, resulting in intense games more often)
+Defenses more about holding positions (always have LT / Fop for ammo)
+Spawn times mean teams can be caught with “bad spawns” (generally 30/30 spawns)
+Most maps have doc runs for main objective by players, which leads to more doc saves etc. (resulting in intense games more often)
+All maps are original maps and work competitively

To me RTCW was as close to a masterpiece as I have ever seen/played, however there were a few negatives.
-Lean
-No Antilag (debatable)
-punkbuster

RTCW really did not have many things to get gay’d by, maybe besides the panzer, but the panzer adds so much excitement for spectators. rtcw did not have, mines/stealing enemies uni’s/prone/mortars/rifle nade. and kept everything extremely simple, which is the reason I loved this game.[/QUOTE]

Good points here, I tend to agree with them all. When we used to go to things such as qcon, even if you werent competing watching the matches was awesome. I feel like DB is really missing the teamwork the others had, and its not so much because of the shooting, or classes. But it is more about how large and complex the maps are. We dont need a city for 5v5, we need to be able to shift to different areas as a team. Coordinate rushes, right now its more like respawn run to objective try not to die ( Even when scrimming ). We try to say what would balance medic/lt gameplay and enhance them but its really that you run around so much that you barely get to do that.

Also +1 to something like the panzerfaust. Maybe an rpg? If there is a cooldown I think its fine. It can be a game changer for both offense and defense and was always fun to watch.

For those that didnt get to play rtcw in its prime, this video shows the excitement it had.

I can only speak for the players in the U.S. that I play with but this is why we play pc games. We want this competitive level and excitement. We are really putting all our chips in hoping DB will be able to deliver.


(Dormamu) #8

Nothing, i am not willing to lose anything, tho if you cannot implement something from your previous games, then you need to replace it with something 2 times greater :smiley:
The final game should not be too noob friendly, i have learned the maps in W:ET by watching others do, not by a tutorial or by following an icon, when i need it to improve i watched tutorials, to much holding hands and you feel like you are doing nothing, you fk up and someone will pat you on your head an say: “It’s ok better luck next time :D”. Joining a server where good players liked to hang out, you had that fear that if you don’t play right, don’t help your team, don’t give most of what you had, you will get kicked. The only way to stay on those servers was if your team/others will not vote you out.
Also trick jumping, i am not ready to lose it, is like most of the weapons in Tribes, everyone can use them, few of them at 25%, fewer at 55%, even fewer at 99%, i’m currently at 0.1%, but i will get there :D. My dream is to see in DB some kind of hybrid between SMART and trick jumping, to see any spot on a map and think that if i practice i can get there. Sliding/Vaulting are already present in most of the games out there, and when you use them once, you don’t want to go back, nor should you be forced to.
All in all i want to have all of your previous games packed in this one :D, a mod for your imagination to go wild, a mod for those who want to play a game resembling 80% with RTCW, a mod for my W:ET, a mod for those who loved ETQW, a mod for Brink lovers :D, etc.
I see Dirty Bomb as a hub where you start and if you like it you stay, but if you like to chose another path, you jump in a modified version of DB with the same/different story, with vehicles, big explosions, aerial combat or just play with your team, in another continent , timeline, and so on. Now, this mods do not need to be created by you, but you must lay the foundation so that your game can be modified, changed and linked in any direction you can think off :D. I know that is to much, but i like to dream big :D, and i promise i will not hold it against you if your views are different from mine.


(rookie1) #9

[QUOTE=Dormamu;433008]…All in all i want to have all of your previous games packed in this one :D, a mod for your imagination to go wild, a mod for those who want to play a game resembling 80% with RTCW, a mod for my W:ET, a mod for those who loved ETQW, a mod for Brink lovers :D, etc.
I see Dirty Bomb as a hub where you start and if you like it you stay, but if you like to chose another path, you jump in a modified version of DB with the same/different story, with vehicles, big explosions, aerial combat or just play with your team, in another continent , timeline, and so on. Now, this mods do not need to be created by you, but you must lay the foundation so that your game can be modified, changed and linked in any direction you can think off :D. I know that is to much, but i like to dream big :D, and i promise i will not hold it against you if your views are different from mine.[/QUOTE]
I was watching slaG link to the rctw video and felt the excitement of the comp at the start :slight_smile:
But watching all of it …I cant see how this can be reproduce today …the epic games for players that played it …no other games can duplicate this unless they do a perfect clone of them.
RTCW, ET, ETQW …and Brink …are differents games …DB must have his personalty in few years people will say RTCW, ET, ETQW,DB …and Brink.
If the Core of DB is about what was in RTCW, ET, ETQW and you add it DB own personality is the best it can be done ,and like Dormamu said by Mods you give groups of players to have a chance to modding it to reflect their prefered classic games.
Me I’d see only for now comp maps packs a solution


(Humate) #10

*allow teams to set up a split defence with confidence

-all in on one route, on the surface looks like great team-work, but often, its the defenders inability to promptly guess that auto-wins an objective.

-also multi-kills vs greater numbers arent as prominent, so going all in trumps split defences, which in turn prompts defensive teams to clump to start with.

*depth

-players are still learning new tricks in etqw; granted not a lot impacts a competitive match, but it definitely has its place in pub.

-momentum was pretty huge in etqw… strategically speaking, knowing when to concede objectives and knowing when you had objectives on lock was a fundamental part of the game, that even pub players understood.

-and experientially the feeling of momentum, simply made the game far more enjoyable.


(Kendle) #11

I’m with Valdez and slaG, RTCW did it best. You should watch the 2nd part of Twisters vid as well:

This includes Quakecon and some of the most intense and exciting moments in eSports history, IMO, especially Infensus getting that against the odds last second defuse on Assault. It’s these “moments in time” that really get to you, that make you literally fall off your chair with excitement and that you remember for years after.

The first match I ever played was in RTCW, I’d joined a team who were bottom of the bottom division in Barrysworld league, and the first game I played with them was the first game they’d ever won in RTCW. Everyone went nuts on comms and no game I’ve ever played on a public server in 12 years since comes close to that feeling.

DB doesn’t have these moments in time, it’s more like: “oh, we won? meh”.

What sucks about previous games? What sucked about ET:QW were the bits they added to make it different from ET. What sucked about ET were the bits they added to make it different from RTCW. What sucked about RTCW? Not a lot.

What RTCW did right is that it didn’t pander to Joe Newb who’s never played an FPS before, it didn’t make it easy for new players, it didn’t make it “accessible”. You didn’t get free ammo off dead bodies, you had to go to your Lt for it. You didn’t get a ton of ammo to begin with so your could lone wolf if you wanted. You had to stick to your team-mates and you had to work with them, or else die, a lot. Gun fights weren’t a merry tap dance where you only got the kill if the other guy was ready for you and it was all fair and gentlemanly.

I say strip it back, strip it right back. No ammo drop, less ammo to begin with, no health regen, make Medics and F/Ops indispensable. Make the guns go “BANG BANG” not “pew pew”, make them hurt, not slowly tickle you to death. Only 2 objectives per map. Shorter, smaller maps. Less escorting, more doc-run.

Things I’d add: give C4 to the Soldier so you have a clear distinction, Engie “makes” stuff, Soldier “breaks” stuff. Add constructibles, instead of blowing a wall to gain access to the next part of the map build a ladder / ramp to get over the wall. If mines stay give Recon the mine spotting ability that Covert had in ET. Keep the Shotgun but make it less OP, keep the Sniper Rifle. The Medics gun and the (other) Engie and F/Ops whatever they are, are too similar, need some clearer distinctions between them, all the guns are a bit same-y. Above all maintain the concept of characters and classes and weapons locked to each. The day a Medic gets a Shotgun is the day I un-install, regardless of what I paid to be here.

The game’s called Dirty Bomb, so make it dirty. Dirty maps, lots of broken stuff, dark, cloudy, rainy, bleak, post-apocalyptic.

Add Tapirs. No, seriously, add Tapirs. CS:GO has chickens that run around clucking and explode in a ball of feathers if you shoot them. London Zoo has fallen into disrepair, animals have escaped. The Tapir is SD’s mascot, let’s have some wandering around the maps.


(nailzor) #12

Well written, +10


(Valdez) #13

[QUOTE=Kendle;433053]I’m with Valdez and slaG, RTCW did it best. You should watch the 2nd part of Twisters vid as well:

This includes Quakecon and some of the most intense and exciting moments in eSports history, IMO, especially Infensus getting that against the odds last second defuse on Assault. It’s these “moments in time” that really get to you, that make you literally fall off your chair with excitement and that you remember for years after.

The first match I ever played was in RTCW, I’d joined a team who were bottom of the bottom division in Barrysworld league, and the first game I played with them was the first game they’d ever won in RTCW. Everyone went nuts on comms and no game I’ve ever played on a public server in 12 years since comes close to that feeling.

DB doesn’t have these moments in time, it’s more like: “oh, we won? meh”.

What sucks about previous games? What sucked about ET:QW were the bits they added to make it different from ET. What sucked about ET were the bits they added to make it different from RTCW. What sucked about RTCW? Not a lot.

What RTCW did right is that it didn’t pander to Joe Newb who’s never played an FPS before, it didn’t make it easy for new players, it didn’t make it “accessible”. You didn’t get free ammo off dead bodies, you had to go to your Lt for it. You didn’t get a ton of ammo to begin with so your could lone wolf if you wanted. You had to stick to your team-mates and you had to work with them, or else die, a lot. Gun fights weren’t a merry tap dance where you only got the kill if the other guy was ready for you and it was all fair and gentlemanly.

I say strip it back, strip it right back. No ammo drop, less ammo to begin with, no health regen, make Medics and F/Ops indispensable. Make the guns go “BANG BANG” not “pew pew”, make them hurt, not slowly tickle you to death. Only 2 objectives per map. Shorter, smaller maps. Less escorting, more doc-run.

Things I’d add: give C4 to the Soldier so you have a clear distinction, Engie “makes” stuff, Soldier “breaks” stuff. Add constructibles, instead of blowing a wall to gain access to the next part of the map build a ladder / ramp to get over the wall. If mines stay give Recon the mine spotting ability that Covert had in ET. Keep the Shotgun but make it less OP, keep the Sniper Rifle. The Medics gun and the (other) Engie and F/Ops whatever they are, are too similar, need some clearer distinctions between them, all the guns are a bit same-y. Above all maintain the concept of characters and classes and weapons locked to each. The day a Medic gets a Shotgun is the day I un-install, regardless of what I paid to be here.

The game’s called Dirty Bomb, so make it dirty. Dirty maps, lots of broken stuff, dark, cloudy, rainy, bleak, post-apocalyptic.

Add Tapirs. No, seriously, add Tapirs. CS:GO has chickens that run around clucking and explode in a ball of feathers if you shoot them. London Zoo has fallen into disrepair, animals have escaped. The Tapir is SD’s mascot, let’s have some wandering around the maps.[/QUOTE]

Wow at least some people have a clue around here. Btw lets not bring up that infensus vs cK match again, after all I was on the losing end in that match. Excellent post, now if only people would actually listen.


(maxxxxlol) #14

What Kendle said.


(INF3RN0) #15

What RTCW didn’t like about ET; it wasn’t RTCW. What ET didn’t like about ETQW; it wasn’t ET. What was the better game? Total opinion. Did the people not playing the newer game give it a chance? Not really. There’s good things from every game, but simply reskinning one game over and over doesn’t necessarily make it more fun or long lasting. If people like the original game that much more, they will keep playing it (see CS series). New can be similar, but it should be as different as it possibly can as well. I just like well designed games, so if DB can’t be any of the above that’s fine by me as long as it works well. I’m totally accepting of new ideas and mechanics as long as they are implemented well. SMART could have been a really amazing replacement for strafing, but it just wasn’t implemented to it’s full potential. I’d never condemn a lot of the new ideas in lots of games if I saw some ounce of worth from better implementation.


(Kl3ppy) #16

+1 DB shouldnt be a copy of RTCW/ET/ETQW.


(Kendle) #17

I’d like to think that doesn’t describe me.

I was an early adopter of ET, and co-founder of ETNation, a European ET community site aimed at comp players. I definitely embraced the new game, but it just wasn’t the same. It needed so much work to make it work as a comp game, thankfully an American called Bani came to the rescue on that front.

I also played ET:QW very early. A friend gave me a beta access key (so I played the beta but didn’t take part in private discussions because I wasn’t supposed to be there) and I played the demo before the final game was released, even playing several matches on Valley, the demo map in it’s original state.

I’m not against new things, quite the opposite, but new doesn’t necessarily mean better.


(INF3RN0) #18

Just have to point out as well that as much as people liked most all of these games, they were not insanely popular. They were really fun and amazing games for those who played them, but that’s as much as we can say. They had competitive scenes yes, but they were dwarfed in comparison to other titles. We all like our games and they were all good in their own way, but we also have to realize that we don’t represent a very large crowd of consumers. “x game did it best” isn’t going to get us anywhere quick. I’d really like people to say DB is like all of the stuff they liked from a bunch of other games and more. Originality is where it all began in the first place after all.


(Evil-Doer) #19

I have a blast playing Dirty Bomb. That is what I’m most excited about. It’s been years since I’ve been so excited with fraging like I am now, with Dirty Bomb.


(Valdez) #20

yeah you are probably right reskinning is not the answer. but what is going to make this game appeal to the masses?? It is not going to be the graphics, not gonna be a game play feature like the smart system. If you ask me I think what could make DB appeal to the masses would be an in game LoL / sc2 type system where you can interact with other players, create clan channels, allow people to idle and chat in those channels etc… No other fps game has really implemented something like this. When I talk about making DB like RTCW, I am trying to get the exciting spectator concepts into DB. Document runs, panzers, 2-3 objectives, 10-12 min maps. What is your opinion on this inferno?? what will make this game appeal to the masses.