What are peoples thoughts on Time To Kill?

(aviynw) #1

I don’t know if this has been discussed or not, but I couldn’t find much on the forums. What are peoples thoughts on ttk? I think you die too quickly in this game. I’m aware that I’m probably on the extreme end, but I think health should be like doubled. In my enemy territory days I played on a “extra health” server with increased movement speed (so people simply missed shots more frequently), and I miss having those long epic gun-battles (I don’t know if that was normal etpub where you could go up to like 150hp). More recently I’ve played tribes ascend where it also often takes a long time to get a kill, but that game is a whole other beast entirely.

Anyways, I’m curious what other peoples thoughts are. I think spread has been reduced recently which would have reduced TTK from what it was. If you do increase ttk you also effect other things, like

  1. It gives less of an advantage to someone who has the better positions (since getting the first shot doesn’t matter as much).

  2. It gives an advantage to the guns with larger clips as smaller clipped guns will have to reload mid-battle more.

  3. It gives less of an advantage to those one shot/two shot kill guns (snipers shotguns) as the first shot is less important and automatic weapons can continue firing while the stronger gun reloads.

  4. It might even change the way people shoot in battles and the effectiveness of burst fire. The way spread works right now, even though spread increases significantly as you fire, it rarely is effective to fire in bursts as you’ll get killed by your opponent in that split second that you are not firing. But if people had more health, there would be more situations where it might be worth it to take a couple hits while you recover your spread, so that you can get some better shots off after (since you won’t already be dead). (you’re also less likely to run out of ammo that way)

Anyways, this is all highly subjective, and depends on what kind of game you like. I love having those long gun battles, where your heart is pumping, and your desperately trying to stay on target while knowing that your health is dropping rapidly and you can die at any moment. That feeling is really exciting and I think the longer that lasts (within reason) the better.

(INF3RN0) #2

I don’t have too much of a problem with the TTK from headshots in general, though I do feel like some weapons give too much leeway for body shots. Either way I’m not too bothered atm.

(Glottis-3D) #3

i dont like, how TTK is so enormously different.
especially when falloff damage kicks in.

take close range fragger and long range phoenix.

there is way too much difference in TTK there. it should be different, but not to that extent.

so, when it comes to low damage weapons + falloff damage + with hip fire - the TTK is TOO DAMN HIGH.
and i believe, that it should be just, you know, High.

(RasteRayzeR) #4

I like the current TTK. As said kroko, it’s true the difference between headshots TTK and bodyshots TTK is pretty huge but I like it because with training you really focus more on the headshots. It becomes slicker and cleaner with time.

For the damage falloff, I believe this is something that is still under work and will change to balance the mercs further more. For instance Fragger should get an accuracy penalty according to firing distance. Right now he’s a sniper delivering 1000 bullets per second …

(Glottis-3D) #5

i myself like how headshots help and decrease TTK.

but i dont like that there are situations -a lot of them - where i use my whole damn clip and dont get a kill.
while in other situations (maybe with other mercs) - i can get an easy 5 shot-kill.
i mean when you get 9-shot spree with lets say 2 headshots you are fully justified to expect him to be almost dead. but with Phoenix at long range he is really far from dead.

TTK is very contraversial.

  • HP being very different
  • Damage-per-second is very different
  • fall off damage is very big / strange
(titan) #6

Agreed, the ttk in general is fine but has a few too many extremes aka insta kills compared to phoenix full clip hipfire falloff damage no kill attack

(INF3RN0) #7

I don’t completely understand the reason for extra fall-off penalties on the SMGs. You already have more spread and less damage. I also question whether SMGs are really that much more effective in their comfort zone than rifles and MGs to begin with? I don’t know if it still works where rifles and MGs receive less of a fall-off penalty, but imo SMGs should have equal fall-off damage to every other weapon when getting headshots; body shots you can punish. The way it has worked would only make sense if SMGs did more damage than rifles and the like at close range, but I think the previous suggestion would be best.

(Kendle) #8

TTK is way too long for a modern shooter hoping to attract more than just a few dozen ex-ET / ET:QW players. Body shot damage is appallingly low, to the extent that I suspect many people, when the game goes open beta / final release, are simply going to conclude the guns are broken and not bother with it.

However short TTK ala COD / BF is not appropriate for an objective game (favours defenders too much) and the high headshot multiplier does save the day to a certain extent (although the tiny hit-boxes don’t help in that regard).

I would agree however that there’s too much discrepancy at the moment, we have high HP / high damage classes up against low HP / low damage classes and the fall off damage is not only too severe IMO but there’s no feel for how much it drops off or at what distance. I’d like more feedback, hit beep volume dependent on damage perhaps and / or larger / smaller damage markers based on damage given etc.

(INF3RN0) #9

To survive against the inherently stronger mercs that receive less punishment for inconsistent aim you have to headshot like a mofo. This is why I expect to see a saturation of fraggers, thunders, etc at low-mid levels. Even then it’s hard to compete when playing exceptionally well at higher levels, but I’ve always complained at the sheer lack of difficulty on the high damage mercs to begin with. The TTK is fairly reasonable still imo, and the much more defined hitsounds do a good job at making it very clear as to what is happening or needs to be happening.

(Glottis-3D) #10

i realy would love to get sound info of how much damage i deal, and some kind of info on how much HP has opponent - painfull screams when low. and blood on the clothes.

+i dont like, how nerfed are medics.
-selfheal is very slow
-very low damage
-with falloff damage primary becomes complete ****

i need stats on damage-per-second for primary weapons. with falloff damage.

(Violator) #11

Bodyshot TTK - too high. Headshot TTK - too low (depending on merc) can feel like instagib sometimes. Overall it kind of evens out I guess atm. If you don’t score at least 2 or so headshots you are dead, barring shotguns / RhinOP :).

(Glottis-3D) #12

i’d go as far as make different head-shot multipliers for different mercs.

i.e.
big HS multi for Fragger
small for proxy.

but plz dont go full extreme again. like with mostly everything in this game.

big = 2.5
small = 2.1

i’d start with these.

and +5 HP for light mercs
and -5 HP for heavy mercs.

(RasteRayzeR) #13

I like the idea, but it yield inconsistency and is really hard to balance. I think damage falloff is way better to tweak. Also the damage falloff of proxy’s shotgun combined with a lower headshot damage would insta make her useless.

(Glottis-3D) #14

no, i meant visa-versa.
Proxy’s head is more hard, than Fragger’s head. (because you know, she’s an engineer, not some dumb soldier) =)

now we have 85HP for proxy (bodyshots) and 34HP for headshots-only

and Fragger has 140HP body and 56HP headshots.

i suggest to make Head-shot HP more similar through mercs.
so with 2.1x headshot multi for proxy’s head she would have 40HP for her head, and not 34

(INF3RN0) #15

I don’t understand why shotguns need a hs multiplier considering they fire buckshot, not slug shot. What I’d prefer is a buckshot that lines up with the center mass of the body, where if you are not aiming dead center will result in bullets missing. This is much more aim demanding than the latter. Something like 2 perfect shots to a kill, or 3-4 moderately aimed shots to a kill.

The other thing is to give mercs like proxy normal HP values, and make movement speed weapon relevant. Keeping the higher speeds with the shotgun, and perhaps allowing for a unique movement maneuver when equipped (like phantom has for his sword), and then keeping the shotgun at 2 direct chest shots. I’d also like to see better secondary weapons to go with shotguns as well; particularly more long range capable.

(Glottis-3D) #16

[QUOTE=INF3RN0;496965]I don’t understand why shotguns need a hs multiplier considering they fire buckshot, not slug shot. What I’d prefer is a buckshot that lines up with the center mass of the body, where if you are not aiming dead center will result in bullets missing. This is much more aim demanding than the latter. Something like 2 perfect shots to a kill, or 3-4 moderately aimed shots to a kill.

The other thing is to give mercs like proxy normal HP values, and make movement speed weapon relevant. Keeping the higher speeds with the shotgun, and perhaps allowing for a unique movement maneuver when equipped (like phantom has for his sword), and then keeping the shotgun at 2 direct chest shots. I’d also like to see better secondary weapons to go with shotguns as well.[/QUOTE]

+1 for special moves.

as for headshots for Shotguns - i as well dont like it. I like when a close ranged weapon is being used as closed range. i.e. you try make all your small shots to go to the body.

2 close shots = kill.

and if all smallshots hit = throwback and dizzy/stun effect for opponent. (you realy need to reward those shots)

(Scarhand) #17

TTK feels pretty close, but should still take a bit longer. Of course this depends on the merc, as they aren’t balanced for combat. Problem is it is inconsistent. On average it isn’t bad, but sometimes it is way too fast, and even more times too slow because the clips are too small. Seriously, there needs to be an increase clip size or make guns shoot slower. Make multi-kills feasible with SMGs without ruining the TTK.

Fall-off damage feels bad because of the inconsistency, due to all the recoil at long ranges. Makes it feel like the fall-off is more than it is because you hit much less.

Don’t agree that headshots need to be nerfed. Problem is, you either get a lot, or very few in fights. If you lock on to the head, it is too easy for recoil to knock you off track. Standing still people die practically instantly. Otherwise, the difficulty in tracking makes them take a longer time. With longer TTK whether they were standing still or not at first matters less and will make it feel more consistent and less biased toward HS. I’m sure there is a correlation between player skill and preferred classes with their vote in the poll.

Random Factors like Random Recoil -> Inconsistency -> Mixed-Opinions + Rage

Inconsistency isn’t always bad, but if it doesn’t raise the skill ceiling proportionately enough, it is bad for a competitive game. Longer TTK makes it more consistent.

(Erkin31) #18

With some match up, ttk is good, but with others match up, the ttk is too low.

(Glottis-3D) #19

I dont like neither super fast kills, nor super long ones.

but i dont like the long ones more.
tweaking headshots can fix only superfast kills.
but for long kills we need to tweak SMGs as a whole.

(onYn) #20

In my oppinion, the TTK with headshot should be increased, I personally dont mind the body, cause I actually dont try to aim for it… I think slowing the burst/firespeed of some weapons would really remove most of the annoying insta gibs, while allowing people to shoot for a longer time, witht he same amount of ammo. Would prolly make people feel like they can kill more enemies, because the time they will be able to shoot, after a kill, will be higher, even tho relativly the same.
Nice to see those “modern shooter” statments again, missed them allready, thy for the laugh :smiley: