Weapon Handling and Feedback

(INF3RN0) #41

Ah. There is X-axis recoil on all weapons when in hipfire that appears to be further reduced in iron-sight, had to check. It’s really minor on the rifles though and more noticeable on SMGs. Tap firing also seems to counteract most of the x-axis effects, while hold firing becomes more prominent. As far as X axis recoil being impossible to control, I’d have to disagree to some extent (not that I like the mechanic). It’s impossible to predict, but it can be compensated for to a degree. The x-axis kick appears to be minimal to the point that as long as your aiming dead center it won’t stray out of the hitbox, but obviously the problems occur at mid-long range. It’s even more difficult to control if you consider the RoF of most weapons.

I think that the x-axis recoil may be part of the reason that people think they have “input issues” in fact. If your trying to aim traditionally with even mouse sweeps, then you will have more trouble compensating for the x-axis kick fast enough and will feel a loss of control of the crosshair. Essentially you’d need to be constantly performing micro-aims on both axis while strafing to keep your crosshair perfectly on a target. I can only theorize why there is x-axis recoil, which is either (1) to make long range hipfire more difficult (2) to punish the traditional ET aim technique. It would make sense why people who were strong aimers in said other games would feel like something was off with the shooting in Xt, where as those more accustomed to this type of aiming mechanic in other games would find it less problematic. It also could account for the feeling of better handling on the non-SMGs as well.

(INF3RN0) #42

Haven’t you read the Xt youtube comments? “Waterhose simulator 2014”. A lot of people like recoil lol, and I thought you wanted more skill curves for weapons?

(1-800-NOTHING) #43

well, it certainly doesn’t help, that’s for sure. and i think you have a good point, especially with regards to the smgs.

however.

on my end it gets so bad that the crosshair actually freezes completely during prolonged fights, and only starts being responsive again after death (reminds me of the audio stutter/strobing issue, for some reason).
also, mouse trailing/swimmity-swim-swim occurs -before- firing a single single shot at all, especially when more peeps are on the server.
that doesn’t sound like just recoil.

similarily sniper rifles and pistols frequently feel like they fire “on release” rather than “on click”.
proxy shotgun often doesn’t fire at all, especially in CQ fights vs high RoF weapons/multiple enemies.

could be packetloss, i suppose… but until that is confirmed, i’m gonna go on calling it input lag/delay :smiley:

(onYn) #44

One last thing about recoil (same goes to fire rate, and weapon dmg): I think recoil has just place in games, where burst is important, where you stand while you shoot. Just like Counterstrike. The Problem tho is, that Xt has much other game mechanics, and needs to be aproached in a much different way. People who want elements from burst games like CoD/CS, etc, probably will never understand this tho. Huge recoil just has no place, in a game, where you fight much more dynamic, where you move yourself, and also you opponent is moving. How do you want to compensate the recoil? Especially in a situation, where you are faced with more opponents, who you have to shoot while jumping, and have to calmly think about every step your doing. Of course, it will be doable to some point, and will need a specific skill, but we are talking about an sd game after all. The last game, that had simillar recoil so far, I think is brink, and we all know how many people liked it.

The game should be about who has the better skill in aim, while moving. I think thats the core, of every successfull fps from sd, and everyone who comes from one of that, prolly wont stick with Xt for a long time, if this will change now. And everyone else, who joins the game, will probably just leave as quick as they come, because another new game came out, or they aren´t satisfied with the game being different from CS/CoD.

So pls SD, listen to what people who really played and loved you games have to say, because simply trying to do what is expected from you (super innovativ game, that just is everything in one and better), may give you good success on release, but in the end only few players may stick to it.

(BioSnark) #45

I don’t necessarily want “huge” recoil (certainly not universally) but that 1st paragraph is your subjective perception of human limits and skill based on past ET games. Back in the day, some people managed with both heavy recoil hitscan and leading projectiles in fast movement games and we even enjoyed it. Weapons had character and you couldn’t use a single skillset on all of them. If the Unreal Tournament rocket launcher magically showed up in this game, I wonder if half the playerbase wouldn’t decry it as “spam.”

(1-800-NOTHING) #46

i agree with BioSnark that xt can afford to have weapons with widely different handling (provided it feels right for that weapon, ofc…).
personally i enjoy both the CQ smooth tracking fights with MPs and the aim-per-shot recoil weapons like the pistols/revolver and conker’s MG, and the fOPs rifles seem to have struck a reasonably good balance somewhere in between with occasional short controlled bursts & IS @ long range.

what bugs me are mainly the smgs and the the shotguns.
[and also the lack of a more versatile primary weapon (more versatile than a MP? yes, more versatile than a MP!)
or powerful secondary weapon (more powerful than a silenced pistol? yes, more powerful than a silenced pistol!) on quite a lot of the characters.]

no idea how much more work than i vaguely imagine it to be it actually is to sync the weapon audio for the auto-weapons, but it seems like that would be a change that would affect all players across the board in terms of evaluating the weapons (netlag and framerate you can kind of shrug off since it’s fairly obvious in a lot of cases). even if RoF is tweaked after that, maybe it would be a good idea to start CBT with a clean slate, rather than have the new testers regurgitate those parts of our feedback that has gotten weapon audio and weapon performance mixed up?

(Ashog) #47

I personally think that vertical recoil has its place in this game for two reasons. As it was said it is in general needed to increase the skill requirement for tracking, secondly it is needed to compensate for certain weapons’ higher RoF or higher damage. For example - for weapons like SMGs and pistols with higher RoF and for sniper rifles huge damage. Additionally to recoil, the higher RoF for SMG is extra compensated by lower bullet damage and higher spread, and for pistols by lower clip size. For sniper rifles huge damage is extra compensated by lower RoF and by tunnel vision (scoped) and huge spread (hip). For MGs the higher bullet damage and (sometimes) higher RoF is extra compensated by higher spread. Even more additionally, every weapon can be tuned by different spread creep at distances, plus also another set of all these parameters is valid for IS.

What I wanna say here is that these are imho the more or less universal FPS gunplay basics and there is no need to invent a new bicycle here. All of these individual parameters need just to be tuned properly. These fundamental weapon differences must be remembered and taken into account during the process of tweaking (once headshot and bodyshot modifiers and headbox size get fixed), if one wants to have distinguishable weapons in game. Else it will become Brink where most weapons seemed similar and very uncharacteristic, making it very hard to decide which one to prefer and which one to choose for a certain task.

(Kl3ppy) #48

I just want to add that the horizontal recoil is total crap. It’s random or so far I didnt recognize a pattern (eg: first one is right, next left than right again and so on). So it’s basically guessing and in a FPS I really hate guessing/luck. Next thing which annoys me, is the weak Medic SMGs (exept in INF3RNO’s hands :tongue:). The damage drop off is, well no comment …

(Rex) #49

No haven’t read them lately. Also I don’t know what should be meant by “Waterhose simulator 2014”.
I’m all for a higher skill curve, but on the other hand I also want to keep spread and recoil down to a minimum. Of course it needs to exists due to the variety of weapons, though much recoil and spread just don’t fit into this game.

(Hundopercent) #50

[QUOTE=Rex;474039]No haven’t read them lately. Also I don’t know what should be meant by “Waterhose simulator 2014”.
I’m all for a higher skill curve, but on the other hand I also want to keep spread and recoil down to a minimum. Of course it need needs to exists due to the variety of weapons, though much recoil and spread just don’t fit into this game.[/QUOTE]

Recoil is something that can be managed I don’t mind it. It’s the uncontrollable/random mechanics that are unpleasant (like spread.)

(INF3RN0) #51

I think the amount of horizontal recoil is apparently manageable to some extent, but it takes a huge amount of effort compared to other weapons. The fall off is indeed bad, however the other day I noticed that headshot fall-off was altered on MGs so maybe it was across the board. There seemed to now be only 2 levels of headshot fall-off being 100% at close-mid range and 50% at long range, while body shot fall-off had 3 levels. If that was true for the SMGs then they would be much better now, but only if you IS and got headshots (will have to test this out later).

I really think the SMGs more significant x-axis recoil is what makes them such an aim dependent weapon. I do consider some players like Samu, Kordin v1.0, ras, sYnceD, leestyle, and potty on a good day for example to have much better handling than myself, which makes me think that the SMG can be brought to a point that it becomes just as useful as other weapons when played in cooperation with the medic abilities and good positioning. I consider aiming to be the ability to keep your crosshair on a target to the best of one’s ability even if there’s slight interference. The x-axis kick is indeed annoying to most peoples accustomed aiming style, but I know it’s manageable enough to get better at using it by seeing other people perform well. That’s just how I judge things before I leave too many demands :wink:.

(.-COM-.PAIN) #52

[QUOTE=BioSnark;473318]

[li]Does a gun recoil when it fires? A laser emits cute little photons. A gun conventionally uses a small explosive to move an object down wind carrying enough force to do damage. There is very little recoil on Extraction’s automatic weapons. These are more like constant stream lasers that have finally been made potent enough in miniaturized form to kill a human after short sustained exposure. They don’t convey much feeling. Please consider exponentially increasing recoil over firing time if you feel you must pander to your current player base as much as you are with low recoils. Also, most of the recoil that does exist, manifests in sights or optics where it conveniently pushes the target into the weapon barrel and sight models.
[/li]
Recoil on slow firing weapons glides aim up gently after each shot. These weapons gracefully ease a projectile out of the well oiled gun. They don’t explode upward. These weapons should kick up with a strong initial velocity that slows over time.

[/list]

*As an aside, the ETQW AR felt like an unreliable toy gun because of weak SFX that played at inconsistent intervals

sorry for possible spelling errors ;)[/QUOTE]

Little recoil, are you kidding me? Any more recoil and forget this game.

(BioSnark) #53

I can confirm that I am not kidding you.

(Hundopercent) #54

I can’t agree with you here. I barely even notice recoil and I’m a low - med sense player. =/ I would actually be open to even more recoil at the reduction of horizontal spread to increase consistency.