Weapon Design Rant


(INF3RN0) #1

I really want weapons in xT to be all about effort based reward, meaning you are depending on player-side skill to achieve progressive results. This isn’t asking for all weapons to involve the same skill sets, but that equally demanding skill curves need to exist on all weapons and this should be reflective in player performance; be it tracking, recoil, reflex, hit scan, etc. A lot of new weaponry is suffering from a lack of player involvement in the physical influence over weapon efficiency, which ends up generating weaponry that is too easy and too situational or too reliant on automated variables. I’d like to suggest testing alternate firing modes as a means of having both a user friendly (but very limited) mode and a high skill -> high reward mode, rather than getting stuck with something with very limited control or with little skill demand but high situational efficiency.

I’m not one to complain on impulse about a weapon and I take into full account how they cooperate with abilities, but I do complain when I see inconsistencies in design. A weapon like Fragger’s MG is a prime example of a low-skill based weapon simply because there is no clear skill curve to master. It’s a point in the general area and click weapon with little imposition on the player in terms of variables that need precise control or have punishment for poor control. Perhaps it has slight limitations in range or spread- however these are limits that are completely out of player control and so damage/clip size is slowly increased until the stats even out. So in the attempt to raise the proficiency cap you end up making it accessible to a broader range of players because the skill gap becomes smaller and smaller. It’s not to argue that you can’t kill Fragger as Sawbonez for example, but rather that the effort required to do so is incredibly askew.

The same consequences of design apply to the shotguns as well, though in a slightly different manner. In this case you have a weapon with little dependence on precision and high dependence on proximity. There is no progressive means for significant player improvement in this area when it comes to this weapon type. In most cases it becomes random chance or forced camping, which results in either low effort kills or complete debilitation. The sniper by comparison is something that only becomes potentially more efficient when it comes to proximity, but is not entirely dependent on it (and still requires incredible precision). This is what makes the shotgun feel so out of place in comparison to everything else.

In both of these cases only the lowest skill denominator benefits, while the higher denominator is held back by hard limitations. I wouldn’t doubt cross referencing stats would show overall higher performance on certain weapon types and overall lower proficiency caps on certain weapon types. These are things I hope are fixed and avoided. More recently the grenade launcher was viewed as too difficult to operate (which it was) and so it experienced the process of simplification until it likely fit into the stat chart. The proposed alternate firing mode (timed air-bursts) really peaked my interest as it suggested a means of a more realistic method of control. The idea of offering an easier yet much more inefficient method of use, and then a more difficult yet more rewarding method of use is hugely appealing. I could see the same idea applying to most of the aforementioned weapon types. For example having a buck shot mode and slug shot mode on the shotgun, or varying RoF/spread modes on the Rhino MG, or a burst mode on the Fragger MG. These would be much more fitting ways to provide appeal to all weapons without creating inconsistencies in the effort requirements of their use or max limits. Even if the easy method didn’t output results after a certain point or against better players, at least there would be an understanding of the next step in progression and at least there would be allowance for a real player influenced skill gap for these weapons.


(INF3RN0) #2

TLDR;

Why are we just brushing off these easy to play- but limited mercs. In the end we’re just going to call them ‘ok’ when they get to the point that they don’t feel OP or entirely useless- regardless of how difficult it is to actually use them. In the end you can never make them truly balanced and as potentially good as high skill merc without having equally demanding skill requirements. All that does is offer a means of improving the performance of the below average player and lose appeal to the above average player. Instead wouldn’t it be better to just fix their poor design and make them viable weapons for all groups and have an actual measurable skill gap? If it keeps up we’ll just see more and more mercs/weapons that ignore the idea of involving consistency and high skill usage. My suggestion being alt-fire modes for certain weapon types; (1) low skill, low reward (2) high skill, high reward.


(Glottis-3D) #3

My suggestion is: projectile weapons.
-like plazmagun, or (more likely) some kind of an automatic/semiautomatic crossbow // darts minigun
-more exotic - chainhook, like the one that scorpion used in Mortal combat.
these weapons were used in different quake mods, like painkiller(for quakeworld) and they were both fun and hard to master.


(Humate) #4

More weapon nuances, allowing for greater mastery… is basically how I interpret what you’re saying.
I cant comment on whether alternative firing modes is a good idea or not, but I agree with the general gist of your post.


(INF3RN0) #5

[QUOTE=Humate;485266]More weapon nuances, allowing for greater mastery… is basically how I interpret what you’re saying.
I cant comment on whether alternative firing modes is a good idea or not, but I agree with the general gist of your post.[/QUOTE]

I was playing CSGO earlier and something like on the P2000 gave me the idea. You have different firing modes for example- the more accurate and slower shooting mode and your less accurate semi-auto mode- appealing to different types of players and different types of situations. I really think certain weapon types (like the shotguns) are going to need pretty unconventional re-designs to make them work with the rest of the game though. Overall I just don’t want to see these simplistic mainstream crutch weapons, and I’d rather see something that appeals to casuals but can be taken much further by hardcore players (with the same effort required as other weapons).


(Kl3ppy) #6

Do you think that the effort will be rewarded? I just play BF3 and I always choose the full automatic guns. And I have the feeling that at least 90% of the non snipers take full automatic guns. If the effort SD has to put into this, I would say, yeah lets go, but if the effort is to big, I would vote for leave it as it is atm.


(stealth6) #7

Didn’t bother to read the thread, but if we’re talking about fun / good weapons that aren’t fully auto then:
AN-94 (BF3 / BFBC2)
M14 (BFBC2)
M1 (BFBC2)

Shotguns with slug rounds in BF3 & BFBC2 (preferably a bit less OP though)
In W:ET you have the engi’s K43 & Garand.


(rookie1) #8

ETQW :piloting air vehicules asked for skill …not all ppl could do it
Ren : I know a guy in c&c Ren that mastering the gunner ( kind of rpg) hes almost a legend :wink:
the point is to support INF3RNO post :Some weapon could be mastering in good hands :wink:


(attack) #9

[QUOTE=rookie1;485275]ETQW :piloting air vehicules asked for skill …not all ppl could do it
Ren : I know a guy in c&c Ren that mastering the gunner ( kind of rpg) hes almost a legend :wink:
the point is to support INF3RNO post :Some weapon could be mastering in good hands ;)[/QUOTE]

i personally would love to see xt move away from unpredictable recoil.
i would be fine with a cs like system too.a ns2 system would be also fine.or a ql system.

simply smth that fits with the gameplay!
i still wondering! nearly nobody likes the currend system and SD keeps with it.
they try to introduce a product that none of the testers like.


(spookify) #10

[QUOTE=rookie1;485275]ETQW :piloting air vehicules asked for skill …not all ppl could do it
Ren : I know a guy in c&c Ren that mastering the gunner ( kind of rpg) hes almost a legend :wink:
the point is to support INF3RNO post :Some weapon could be mastering in good hands ;)[/QUOTE]

Not if they keep increasing spread…


(shaftz0r) #11

[QUOTE=attack;485297]i personally would love to see xt move away from unpredictable recoil.

i would be fine with a cs like system too
[/QUOTE]

you just lost all credibility


(attack) #12

why?explain it to me!


(shaftz0r) #13

cs is the definition of “unpredictable” recoil. aiming 6" under someones body for headshots


(Bangtastic) #14

[QUOTE=attack;485297]i personally would love to see xt move away from unpredictable recoil.
i would be fine with a cs like system too.a ns2 system would be also fine.or a ql system.
[/QUOTE]

you made a valuable point here; to be fair weapons got better and easier to handle, less horizontal recoil here since patch. cs -> burst fire; I would love it^^


(Rex) #15

Wrong game dude.


(Nail) #16

[QUOTE=stealth6;485273]Didn’t bother to read the thread, but if we’re talking about fun / good weapons that aren’t fully auto then:
AN-94 (BF3 / BFBC2)
M14 (BFBC2)
M1 (BFBC2)

Shotguns with slug rounds in BF3 & BFBC2 (preferably a bit less OP though)

In W:ET you have the engi’s K43 & Garand.[/QUOTE]

AN - 94 is full auto, it’s only redeeming feature is ultra fast 2 shot burst


(shaftz0r) #17

that was prolly my fav weapon in bf3, next to the thompson


(Raviolay) #18

I am sorry you can’t have weapons with a skill based learning curve and support tracking aim, this whole debate is schizophrenic. This alt fire rebrand is a none starter too, there are secondary weapons that already have a place in that role.


(stealth6) #19

In-game, the AN-94 fires in a two-round burst

source

That’s what I meant, I have no idea how any gun works in real life.


(Kl3ppy) #20

The AN-94 has single shot, burst and full auto mod in BF3