Useless augments.

(Eox) #1

It’s something that bother me a little since the start : some loadout card are better than others. Why ? Because most of loadout can be considered as “trash” (YOU DON’T SAY ?! insert Nicolas Cage face here). Why one loadout can be considered as a bad one ? Because some mercs are definitely unsuited for the use of some perks (exemple : Spares is a waste on Arty, since he can ressuply ammo to himself), or the perks are not judged valuable for a skilled player (Try Hard is a very nice exemple : basically it rewards you for suiciding in the opposite team), or some perks just give way too few or are way too situational (Enigma is a good exemple, as it’s technically only useful against Vassili at the moment). Let’s add to this that some perks looks glitched (Lock On on Fletcher does not seem to provide any time gain).

So, let’s talk about those augments :

Focus reduce aimpunch by 50% during ADS. It’s useful if you use a long ranged weapon (Vassili will love it), but it’s a really bad one if you are a SMG or a Shotgun merc, as you are supposed to stay mobile and fight at mid to close range (and hipfire is already precise enough for anyway). Quick Eye has the same problem than Focus. +35% walk speed on ADS, it’s cool with a long ranged weapon, but it won’t be that useful with a SMG or a Shotgun, even if on the paper it’s better than Focus for those two kind of weapons. It’s fine to find those on Vassili, or maybe even Kira or Arty. But why are those available on a lot of Nader’s loadout, and worse, on some shotgun Fletcher loadouts ?

Fail Safe is one of those perks that, at least at first glance, are made to help new players. It can be helful with Fragger, Fletcher or Nader for very close range encounters if you have some explosives in hand. It’s also useful with Fletcher or Nader in order to try to explosive jump. But why do we find it on Proxy ? Worse, why does it even exist on Arty ? On Proxy, it’s seriously a perk that “protects” you from a rookie mistakes that you won’t do anymore after a few hours of Proxy play. And what about Arty ? Do anyone ever managed to suicide himself on his own airstrike ? Is it even possible ? If found on Arty, Fail Safe is an insult to your intelligence.

Cool allows you to exploit MGs a longer time by reducing the time before they overheat. Let’s pass that small detail that there’s no MG on Underground… If you are firing from a MG, you are not moving. If you are not moving with a fast and squishy character like Proxy, you’re doing it wrong ! Yet, Proxy (and probably Aura) counts cool on her perks available on some loadout cards. Those two does not count a lot of HP, so seriously doubt that under fire on a MG they’ll be able to stand half a second. Let’s add to this that if the MG overheats, the MG user, if he really needs it, will simply jump off the MG, shoot some lead from his own weapons and go back to his MG a few seconds after. This makes Cool a very lackluster perk, and a useless one on low hp characters.

Spares is a fine perk that allows you to bring one more mag with you. If you tend to run out of ammo quickly like Fragger, it’s cool. But what if you are a living ammo dispenser, basically never running out of ammo ? What if you are Arty, Kira or Skyhammer ? That’s right, it’s a waste.

Try Hard gives you 10 more hp (up to 30) for each death you suffer without killing anywone. This is another one of those “newbie friendly” perks. Except that this ones does really bad the job. No game should reward you for dying. Even if it’s dying without killing anyone. Especially if it’s dying in a such unskillful way. Dying is dying, and should not be rewardable. Let’s add this to the fact that the perk can be used in a way that it should not be used : some people are willingly suiciding themselves on the opposite team just to build it up. Not a valid strategy, knowing how much time you will loose just to be buffed during a single life, and probably not a good design choice.

Pineapple Juggler allows you to throw back Fragger’s grenades. Most of players find it useless since nades are cookable. I think we could push it farther : maybe can we allow it to throw back Nader’s grenades (Martyrdom included ?), Skyhammer’s airstrike markers and/or Fletcher’s sticky bombs ?

Enigma feels useful, but does so few… So far, it’s only useful against Vassili, as technically nothing else can spot you to enemy players. If there’s no Vassilis in the opposite team, then the perk is wasted. I hope this perk will become more useful if more mercs comes out.

Last but maybe not least : Lock On allows you to make your installations react 30% faster. It’s good. At least it’s supposed to be. Because on Fletcher, it’s either glitched or unnoticeable, as shown in that thread : http://forums.dirtybomb.nexon.net/discussion/11561/fletcher-passive-lock-on#latest

I may miss a lot of perk that are totally useless on a charcater (maybe chopper exists for Rhino ?). I really would like to see those perks replaced (or buffed in Pineapple Juggler or Enigma’s case) for those mercs, as it may make some of those “bad loadout cards” more attractive. Variety is aways good, even on loadout cards ! And you can’t except variety if one is way better than the others because the other ones are trash. :stuck_out_tongue:

I guess I could suggest some new perks later.

(_Sniff_) #2

Pineapple Juggler only works on fragger’s nades. Admiral Teddy and I shot explosives at each other in private.

(Eox) #3

All right, a buff may be justified then. Thanks for the precisions. :slight_smile:

(Ardez1) #4

Was that tested with Skyhammer’s throwable? I know it goes off as a grenade indoors.

(Amerika) #5

I just want to see Pineapple Juggler be used for Skyhammer airstrikes. That would not only make the augment useful but it could make it very intriguing for match play as people with the perk might rush to throw it but they could be shot doing so making it not that OP. However, it would make pubs hilarious that have 5 skyhammers on a team that randomly throw out airstrikes.

(Ardez1) #6

I want to see it also work for Fletcher’s stickies, except that they become stuck to the player that tries to throw them >:P harharhar

EDIT: @Sniff You should lobby to get this a thing :smiley:

(Eox) #7

[quote=“Ardez;25972”]

I want to see it also work for Fletcher’s stickies, except that they become stuck to the player that tries to throw them >:P harharhar[/quote]

“RETURN TO SEND… Ah poop !” boom

(immenseWalnut) #8

The additional augments are there for bloat, so they can create more loadout cards. No point in complaining, they wont remove them if it reduces the pool of cards.

(Ghosthree3) #9

Just don’t use them?

(Eox) #10

Checking CR73 Companion Operative from Sawbonez, I seriously doubt that we have to consider augments that lightly. Get Up, Mechanic and Potent Packs, with the most powerful SMG in the game : CR73 is not considered as the best Sawbonez loadout by a mile for nothing, and this is not an isolated case. Perks do give great advantages for some. Just look at Unshackable.

A bit more balance between the 8 choices of loadouts for every mercs is, in my opinion, definitely a welcomed improvement.

Just let’s make them better ?

Why just a few loadouts have to be good and others should be bad ? Why don’t we suggest to players more viable loadout choices ? Now let’s bring your words farther. Some say Arty is bad ? How about “just don’t use him.” ?

With those kind of answer, we can’t make the game better on any point. The game is in beta. As players we are beta testers. We have to give feedback, we have to suggest ways to improve, and balance between loadout cards could definitely be an improvement.

(Ghosthree3) #11

[quote=“Eox;25996”]Just let’s make them better ?

Why just a few loadouts have to be good and others should be bad ? Why don’t we suggest to players more viable loadout choices ? Now let’s bring your words farther. Some say Arty is bad ? How about “just don’t use him.” ?[/quote]
You’ll never make every different perk balanced. No game ever has, there are always going to be perks that are better picked for most situations in the game than others. You can try and make them better but some are just weak by design and trying to make them as good as others would require nerfing others to be as crappy as they are.

(Eox) #12

[quote=“Ghosthree3;26000”][quote=“Eox;25996”]Just let’s make them better ?

Why just a few loadouts have to be good and others should be bad ? Why don’t we suggest to players more viable loadout choices ? Now let’s bring your words farther. Some say Arty is bad ? How about “just don’t use him.” ?[/quote]
You’ll never make every different perk balanced. No game ever has, there are always going to be perks that are better picked for most situations in the game than others. You can try and make them better but some are just weak by design and trying to make them as good as others would require nerfing others to be as crappy as they are.[/quote]

Except that in DB, those perks does not come alone. They come with two other perk friends, as well as with a weapon set. You can’t make the perks balanced between themselves, but you can make the loadouts way more balanced than they actually are. Sure you won’t find the perfect balance, perfect balance can’t even be achieved with playable characters (and by the way nothing is perfect) but you can at least tweak it nicely so the weakest ones becomes more enjoyable, or tune down the best ones. It’s as the devs whishes.

This also does not excuse the presence of useless perks for a given merc in anyway (Fail Safe on Arty, Cool on light mercs, etc…), or the presence of glitched perks (Lock On on Fletcher does not work). Also, some buffing some other perks could bring improvement to the gameplay (if you look above, a lot a people are interested about a Pineapple Juggler buff).

(Ardez1) #13

[quote=“Ghosthree3;26000”][quote=“Eox;25996”]Just let’s make them better ?

Why just a few loadouts have to be good and others should be bad ? Why don’t we suggest to players more viable loadout choices ? Now let’s bring your words farther. Some say Arty is bad ? How about “just don’t use him.” ?[/quote]
You’ll never make every different perk balanced. No game ever has, there are always going to be perks that are better picked for most situations in the game than others. You can try and make them better but some are just weak by design and trying to make them as good as others would require nerfing others to be as crappy as they are.[/quote]

As a point of fact, most of the augments considered the ‘best’ were nerfed to their current stages in April I think. At the same time several considered the worst were buffed. At least now it is tempting to use a loadout with different and situational perks. Before it was just “These perks are very clearly better”.

(Ghosthree3) #14

Of course, you can make the gap between them closer, I’m just saying there are always going to be the more favourable perks. It comes with the fact that they are different from each other.

(Gi.Am) #15

Augments are fine imo (those that don’t work aside i.e. the fall damage one. If its still not fixed) for 3 reasons.

  1. Augments are not ment to be game changing strong.

  2. The Augment combination is balanced together with mercs (there is no 20% faster repair for proxy anymore, remember that was fun ^^) and weapons (i.e. the only loadouts that feat. both turret augments for Bushwacker are only avaible with a Blishlok).

  3. It largely depends on the playstyle. Some augments that might be useless for you, might work for someone else (for example the obsidian Arty has chopper. Imo if I have to resort to melee weapons with Arty I do something wrong. But I can acknowledge that samurai Arty is a thing).

So lets go over your list with a different perspective.

Focus: All weapons suffer from aimpunch in ADS even SMGs. In longer range situations you do get benefits using ADS even on SMGs. Nader specifically (can’t comment on shotguns not experienced enough, tho the ahlud is pretty potent on midrange) is often in longrange engagments, do to her nadelauncher. But because they don’t kill most of the time, you have to do alot of cleanup. So you are doing a surprising amount of cleanup (and the crotzni is perfect in those situations)

Failsafe: While I kinda agree that most of the time Arty doesn’t need it. I had some situations aiming that thing in closerange or having a aim that went bad and instead near the EV directly ontop of my cover. As for Proxy I have killed enough Proxys by shooting their mines infront of them. They might have survived with failsafe ^^.

Cool: Simple, faster Mercs can flank better. Therefore can get to MGs behind the enemy (like the always fun trickjump spawn MG Chapel Elevator). In those situations HP is irelevant and having cool might mean you can kill 5 instead of 3 before overheat.

Spares: Ok that is the big one. Having spare on any of the firesupport guys is huge (relatively see 1.) More magazine storage for yourself, means less ammopacks go to yourself, means more ammo for your teammates and fewer situations where you run out of ammo, because you gave all away and have cooldown now (it happens don’t ask). Additional having one mag more means less delay because of refill in combat. Spares is especially great on Kira since she can stay longer in combat before she has to go back to the ammo station.

Try Hard: I give you that one / Not gonna touch this

Pineapple juggler: Since I have never ever seen someone use it and the only one it works against, never ever throws a nade in a fashion, that you could use it (hey another reason why primed frags should be the norm and primed ones situational). I would agree with you but only if the fuses / call ins are still ticking after pickup. So that it will be a high risk / reward thing.

Enigma: I think its fine never actively noticed the effect but I would assume that it increases the chance that some of the enemy team will miss your spotter icon.

Lock on: for me mostly hinges on the question of how much does it improve other merc abilities i.e. how much sooner is a proxmine going off how much faster is a turret really reacting if they are in the same region I would argue that the augment is fine but might need a slight buff.

More augments are always wellcome but I wouldn’t want to be the guy that has to balance them with the other augments weaponselection and mercs.

(kAndyREW) #16

sounds kinky :wink:

(capriciousParsely) #17

I personally think most of the augments are boring and add nothing to the game. I would like to see more useful perks; if they’re gonna keep this system.

(Ardez1) #18

They are meant to be side grades and not be super impactful or OP. They are trying to avoid the system of “Everybody only uses that card as it is the best one.” Each merc should have 3-4 good card and the rest decent, but not good IMHO. I am not saying that is how it is now, but it is what I would like to see.

(Ghosthree3) #19

Yeah I agree that most seem pretty bad. When I’m looking through loadouts to choose a good one to get it becomes more of a ‘which has the least bad’ than ‘which has the most good’.

(immenseWalnut) #20

[quote=“Eox;25996”]With those kind of answer, we can’t make the game better on any point. The game is in beta. As players we are beta testers. We have to give feedback, we have to suggest ways to improve, and balance between loadout cards could definitely be an improvement.

[/quote]

The problem is, the system is based on RNG, so they need a lot of options to make it harder to obtain the cards you really want (so people will keep paying money for a chance at the best cards). It is a con, pure and simple.

And as long as people are willing to keep paying money instead of boycotting the payment model, it wont change, and if anything it will get worse.

It is a similar situation to what happened 6-7 years ago with draconian DRM, many people complained about it but still kept buying games that used the worst kind, whereas others boycotted those games (many of those were from EA, remember Spore?). Fortunately that problem was resolved, but not because more players boycotted those games, publishers simply found a better method of protecting their games from piracy.

If people are so willing to bend over and be conned, there is little anyone else can do. Many of the players spending money have stated they dislike the payment model, but they still spend money anyway because they want to support the devs/game, but in reality they are only supporting the payment model that Nexon chose, making it harder to get it improved to the point where it will be positive for both the players and the money men.

I can easily afford to spend money on DB, but I refuse to, because it is a con. And in hindsight from other games that use similar methods (Tribes Ascend, Hawken, Loadout etc) I expect it would be a waste of money even if I was willing, as I can’t see DB lasting longer than 6-9 months from open beta before development is abandoned. The publishers have sacrificed longevity and high player numbers for the sake of making a lot of quick cash before the game dies, but in turn that decision will only make it more likely.