Update Released!


(Kendle) #101

That’s my over-riding feeling also.

The biggest things missing IMO are capture-able forward spawn points, selectable spawn points, and a non-working wave respawn system. I think these add the most dynamism to the game.

At the moment XT is entirely linear, it’s a case of lemming rushing the first objective, then when that’s done lemming rushing the next, and so on until the map finishes. There are no spawn points to capture to move the front line back and forth, you’re always attacking / defending the same point, and with a broken spawn system in Obj mode it’s lemming-rush / meat-grinder all the way.

I actually think the gun-play is “OK”. It’s not as good as the previous patch, or arguably the one before that, but it’s OK. I still think the guns are too weak and the TTK too long, but I know that’s a minority opinion around here. But the biggest gripe I have BY FAR is the poor map design and lack of choices we have as a team. The ONLY thing to be done at any stage on any map is lemming-rush the objective and hope to get lucky.


(prophett) #102

[QUOTE=Kendle;485081]That’s my over-riding feeling also.

The biggest things missing IMO are capture-able forward spawn points, selectable spawn points, and a non-working wave respawn system. I think these add the most dynamism to the game.

At the moment XT is entirely linear, it’s a case of lemming rushing the first objective, then when that’s done lemming rushing the next, and so on until the map finishes. There are no spawn points to capture to move the front line back and forth, you’re always attacking / defending the same point, and with a broken spawn system in Obj mode it’s lemming-rush / meat-grinder all the way.

I actually think the gun-play is “OK”. It’s not as good as the previous patch, or arguably the one before that, but it’s OK. I still think the guns are too weak and the TTK too long, but I know that’s a minority opinion around here. But the biggest gripe I have BY FAR is the poor map design and lack of choices we have as a team. The ONLY thing to be done at any stage on any map is lemming-rush the objective and hope to get lucky.[/QUOTE]

Couldn’t agree more. We are forced to play Extraction maps a certain way because there is no choice.

For the 100th time - Strive for what radar from ET offered us;

  • quick plant side
  • cap forward spawn
  • rush main
  • capture east/west from CP/forward spawn with support from main
  • boosting
  • trick-jumping
  • take the obj the long, safe route or try the short, more dangerous route
  • the amount of defensive rotating and communication needed to be successful was second to none.

West radar attack routes - attack from fake radar/bridge, attack main and go through the trench next to the forward hut, trick jump, boost, flank around east radar (long flank) , down the main road and short flank.

Whitechapel attack routes - run down the main road or run down the main road & take the side route next to the chapel that reconnects to the main road.

In summary - Iron out any issues required to allow the community to make maps and incorporate them into the game. Having 1-2 community made maps for the launch of the game will also send a strong “shaped by gamers” message.


(shaftz0r) #103

[QUOTE=prophett;485083]
In summary - Iron out any issues required to allow the community to make maps and incorporate them into the game. Having 1-2 community made maps for the launch of the game will also send a strong “shaped by gamers” message.[/QUOTE]

this to me is a key to success.


(Kendle) #104

I was reminded last night that Goldrush was also a popular map in ET, but the “TE” version with the Tank stopping on the bridge. SD have now modified LB to do the same, EV stops on the bridge, turns, and blows out the HQ doors.

However LB remains a very poor substitute for GR.

Where LB could learn from ET on this is opening up a route that allows the attacking team to get behind the defence and come up the street leading down to first barrier on the first stage. It’d be risky because they’d likely run into newly spawned defenders, but the payoff is they get in behind the defence. At the moment defence can hold the street corner (with a Sniper usually) and camp the EV and it doesn’t really matter which way attack goes, they always end up in the same place with defenders waiting, which = meat-grinder.

Similarly I’d make it so “something” around the 1st barrier area could be captured by defence to push attack back to EV starting point (their 2nd spawn), which attack could re-capture to regain their usual 3rd spawn. To make that work, and make blowing the barrier in the first place more interesting, there would need to be a long route attack could take to get behind the barrier (some route from 1st spawn area to the road that goes down past 3rd barrier to HQ). Currently, they attack the barrier from one side only, which = meat-grinder again.

And on the last stage the doc run should be much longer than it currently is, perhaps put the container somewhere up the hill (perhaps the building just past where 3rd barrier was), and move defender spawn somewhere up that hill also (but back in the buildings some where) so they can intercept once the data core has been taken. If there was a route that could take you back past 1st barrier, back to 1st spawn, down the hill to 3rd barrier, it’d give attack a very long, and fairly safe route to carry the docs, but at the cost of defence almost certainly waiting for them at the delivery point. You’d then get some good too and fro game play without making it yet another meat-grinder stage.

Again, compare LB with Goldrush and it becomes obvious what’s missing. No long route to get behind the other team, at any stage, no capture-able spawn to push the other team back a spawn point, no real doc run element with any chance of defence recovering the data core once it’s been taken. These kind of changes should be fairly simple (as a non-coder / non-mapper that is of course easy for me to say but I can’t believe it’s that difficult), and they’d go an awful long way to making the game much more dynamic, and much less mindless run from A to B, die and repeat.


(attack) #105

maybe we should get rid of the last objective as carry object and insert smth to blow up.
the current last stage is createt as a complex room which is very good to def.
i think the area is interisting enough on its own if you have to blow it up.(i think it could be gameplaywise like the last part of braundorf)
zhe last stage of GR is completly different , there is no focus on the obj room as maindef,
its more the complete area.
also you cant move the spawn of defenders without cut the defpart in the room away.
so its not the smatest way to implement the same objectives in a total different mappart.


(prophett) #106

I like the idea of providing more routes that come with a trade-off.

A longer final doc run would alos be nice. I always suggested the room above the stairs on the very last turn the EV makes before heading down the hill to secure.


(spookify) #107

This new update has competently gone in the wrong direction. First off hit registration is bad and some weird mouse lag.

Second HS hit sounds are beyond bad.

Third Medic are completely useless now. Not just from a gun stand point but from a support stand point. People all over pub server calling for medic’s and unless they are away from the action there is no way they are getting revived. It is near impossible to stay alive and no poke or beat a solider. I was amazed at how fast I was dieing. Even if he gets 2 HS on my right off the bat I was still running away in hiding as a medic. That is just plan stupid. The game felt sooo slow if you are trying to get a positive KD or didnt have the team work to back you.

The game is not fun to play right now.

O yeah, so SD whats Soldiers or AR people to lead the killing. As everyone knows I totally disagree in the fact that medics should be so weak but I did go the Soldier and got a 2:1 KD. It was the most boring play out of any game I have ever played. 150 HP great maybe 2 kill and if you are on 3 but then run away and hide for what seemed like 10 years to heal up. Heck reload times are ten times faster then healing.

I dont know why SD doesnt use this simple idea… No one likes to be dead!

I am going to take a break until next patch because this one seems ridiculous.


(INF3RN0) #108

Need to be able to add custom hitsounds really. Medic’s don’t appear to be weaker. It was the most played class in the tourney on this patch and definitely wasn’t at the bottom of the barrel. I’ve heard some people getting mouse issues, otherwise I think it may be an isolated issue. Reg also felt fine as well for me at least. Main change I think was the audio sync and balancing Phoenix with Saw, but idk on that since I only really play Saw anyway.


(attack) #109

there must be changes to obj mode if you play 3 maps in 15 min there is smth wrong


(ailmanki) #110

About the map design, all good maps in ET can be describe by multiple circles intersecting. Goldrush is a perfect example of that.
This is almost completely missing in Extraction. There are lots of choke points which basically result in a single way. Last map updates have improved this situation, but not solved it.

Trying to something new is ok, but some stuff should not even be tried, but simply avoided. Like linear maps, meat grinder choke points, changing spawns without the player having a sense of it - why it has changed. Just because the EV moved 3 meters? You spawn back? (not talking about the initial repair)

This link is actually from the Level Design Resources in this forum…
http://www.g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/725057/the-legacy-of-fail-gears-of-war-3-level-design-with-epics-jim-brown/


(INF3RN0) #111

On top of what Ali said there is also not a lot of back and forth flow to the maps. It feels like a slow push at consecutive chokes (unavoidable with EV objs, which is what makes them so grindy). This is one of the reasons I don’t miss the hack obj on Waterloo because all it felt like was a really hard to break choke right before the objective. The only obj that has some moderate flow to it is 1st obj WL now, but only because it has a forward spawn and well placed side obj. Even then the forward spawn isn’t in the greatest location.


(Crispy) #112

[QUOTE=spookify;485126]It was the most boring play out of any game I have ever played.[/QUOTE]Hyperbole does not a convincing argument make.

I say this as someone who has been through the early-to-late stages of the feedback process of every Splash Damage game made since 2009. It’s all too easy, and too tempting, to overemphasise what you’re feeling at a given moment in time because something doesn’t quite seem right to you. A lot of us internally fall foul of the very same impulsive behaviour. But, ultimately, that doesn’t make for a convincing argument.

Just put yourself in the designer’s shoes: would you listen to someone who grossly overstates the point they wish to make, or would you give more credence to the person who weighs up their arguments with a clear pro/con and who tells it how it is, precisely, without resorting to hyperbole to make their case?

I think we have a lot of really great insight on these forums. The best arguments are made by people who tell it how it is. No amount of exaggeration is needed to point out something that makes sense when described in the right context.


(INF3RN0) #113

On another note, and this is just from personal use (not whine). Can we please try to maintain some kind of learning curve to weapons- especially if they are going to be highly combat effective? The fragger MG is back to its old ways again. I’d like to see some heavy recoil on it or need for controlled bursting. Still wish shotguns involved something more than how close you were to another player as well. Rhino MG just seems like it’s there to please the masses. I’d just like all weapons to be less about how statistically often they get kills and instead involve effort based reward.

I’d love to see more alternate firing modes. Maybe keep a default easy to use mode with decent reward and have a secondary high skill based mode with greater reward. A quick example being a wide buck shot dealing something like 35dmg, and then a very narrow slug shot that needed to land directly in the chest resulting in 45-50 dmg or head resulting in 60dmg. The idea mentioned by Anti on the grenade launcher is a great means of offering a solid secondary high skilled learning curve to the weapon. I’d really like to see this on a lot of weapons instead of having such inconsistencies between them comparatively.


(montheponies) #114

Re-iterating what most have said, the maps are still the weakest point, which is a bit surprising when you consider the wealth of existing main and custom maps to use as source material, from both RTCW and W:ET (well mainly RTCW). Doc run maps should be based upon something like Village. For demolition look at how Base did twin objective - seperate towers, each defendable - unlike WL where when you lose one, good chance you’ve lost both as the attackers lock it down. Forward spawns and side routes should be the norm.

I’d suggest at this stage throwing up block out maps for us to play and comment on, really see no advantage to holding them back while you do umpteem cosmetic passes, when there are fundamental gameplay issues. Taking it a stage further I’d encourage a regular IRC workshop on the maps with invited community members who know what it’s like to design and test a map. Can’t stress enough how much of a problem the current crop are - even with radical iterations.

Other elements that I think require attention to ensure ‘good’ feedback;

  • Spawnwave needs to be setup to work consistently. I’d also suggest having a 10s offset between attack/defense typically.
  • Friendly fire should be setup on at least half the servers.
  • Medic revive shield needs to be 1-2s.
  • The carryable objective mechanic needs to just be a simple pick up, still grates having to stand over it. Same with returning.

(Humate) #115

Played field ops 2 in a TDM…
Felt like I was using the same sort of aim required for a shotgun.
If that is what you (SD) are going for with that weapon, then keep that as is.
However even though I did pretty well with the weapon, the experience of the weapon itself wasn’t all that satisfying.

Do you plan on introducing a weapon that is similar to the lacerator?


(attack) #116

ok now with some examples why an plant obj would be better!(i know many dont like to hear that because of nostalgia and because we all want a map with a goodcarryobj, but this map is simply not sw_goldrush and it will assumingly never be)


the current laststage has 3 entrances chokepoints,where the attacker have to path through.(the windows have to be undestroyable!).
all are close enough to let defenders react to incoming enemies.so the enemies are forced to push similar.
or try to break through on one route with the sledghammer.
2 routes are close to defenders spawn which let them be able to recover the room and let the attackers which are most times raped to 1-3 have to maincover only 2 entrances.
the similarity to braundorf 2nd stage is relativly big.look at the picture what i mean.


i could paint in defenders and attackers routes on if requiered.
additionally i could do some shootangles pictures,possible coverpositions ,flanking points and crossfire possibilitys and so on.
that would include some work .