Underwhelming objectives causing lack of interest

[Kendle]

I’m coming to the conclusion I’m bored with this game already, and not sure I’ll make open beta at this rate. I quite like the gun-play now, it’s been getting better patch by patch, and if the TDM / Execution servers were used I’d probably play a lot more, I don’t mind mindless fragging if the mechanics are right, but I’m really going off objective mode, to the extent I just can’t be bothered to fire up XT any more.

What’s wrong with objective I hear you ask? Well, allow me to explain …

Blow **** up

For me this just doesn’t work without Engineers / Soldiers doing the planting / defusing. I’m sorry, I want to get used to new stuff, and I even understand the logic behind classless objectives, but for me this is like re-inventing the wheel, un-necessary and counter-productive. It’s like putting oval wheels on a car and then devising some sort of wacky suspension system (proficiencies) to smooth out the ride. Just put the damn round wheels back on.

For me the whole point is “someone” plants / defuses while team-mates cover, keep the objective guy alive etc. I want to accept the brave new world of classless objectives, but it seems like a shallow bland version of the “real thing”, totally underwhelming and uninspiring, and just plain boring.

Escort the big ol’ lump of slowness

Yawn inducing and IMO one of those things you might add to a map to add variety, but not something you base an entire map (LB / WC) on. I like that more team-mates near the EV makes it move faster, but when it’s ALL the map is about I’m gonna skip those maps when the final game is released (assuming I even play the final game).

Carry the jugs

This is wrong, just wrong, with how it’s done at the moment. The whole point of carrying something from A to B is you need team-mates to ride shotgun, and each team should have reasonable chance to get it there or get it back. Carrying something towards or away from one team’s spawn is just nuts, the routes should be longer, they should be perpendicular to each team’s spawn and there should only be one something to carry. Adding multiple jugs just rubs salt in the wound, and as it stands now carryables in XT are either just meaningless, or they’re meat-grinders.

So, decent gun-play, pretty good class and character, and even more importantly weapon, variety, but objectives are plain, boring, meaningless exercises in drudgery.

Hopefully when / if the player base increases Execution and TDM will be played more, but for now I just can’t bring myself to jump on Casual Objective, it’s just mind-numbingly underwhelming. Sorry.

[INF3RN0]

I made a post like this in the VIP forum. Absolutely agree objs are boring. I think they were boring before as well, except you were simply distracted by the fact that they were limited to a few players. I think objs need to be vamped up in general to something more exciting and dynamic in general. Pressing F is something I’ll leave to the lemmings.

[Kl3ppy]

fully agree. It’s kinda sad that I enjoy the Execution mod most, because the SD games are known for the objective gamestyle but here its very boring and it’s way to repetitive than in their other shooters. Maybe it’s a map design issue becaue the maps are way to linear. You have 1 or 2 ways to go, the defenders can easily predict the attackers tactic. TDM/Execution have more opened maps, more ways to go and that doesnt make it boring. Yesterday we played 2 (?) hours Execution and it was fun. I wanted to quit earlier but it was just too nice to leave. On objective mod, I play 1, max 2 maps and I’m done …

[Seanza]

You’re right. Objectives really miss that extra dynamic of having a set of particular characters who are the only ones who can do them. I’m willing to accept the change, and I have started to… sort of.

Planting seems super fast with everybody as of the current balances, but I think this will improve greatly as the characters proficiency is varied. Repair/defuse is pretty okay for me as it stands.

[Angrim]

Yeah, they do feel somewhat underwhelming compared to W:ET and QW.

Placeholder/missing art assets and sound effects may be a factor here. That said, I also feel like the general map design and this new (and dumped down) way of handling the different types of objectives put a damper on the excitement you get from completing objectives in Extraction.

[shaftz0r]

[QUOTE=Kendle;474112]I’m coming to the conclusion I’m bored with this game already, and not sure I’ll make open beta at this rate. I quite like the gun-play now, it’s been getting better patch by patch, and if the TDM / Execution servers were used I’d probably play a lot more, I don’t mind mindless fragging if the mechanics are right, but I’m really going off objective mode, to the extent I just can’t be bothered to fire up XT any more.

What’s wrong with objective I hear you ask? Well, allow me to explain …

Blow **** up

For me this just doesn’t work without Engineers / Soldiers doing the planting / defusing. I’m sorry, I want to get used to new stuff, and I even understand the logic behind classless objectives, but for me this is like re-inventing the wheel, un-necessary and counter-productive. It’s like putting oval wheels on a car and then devising some sort of wacky suspension system (proficiencies) to smooth out the ride. Just put the damn round wheels back on.

For me the whole point is “someone” plants / defuses while team-mates cover, keep the objective guy alive etc. I want to accept the brave new world of classless objectives, but it seems like a shallow bland version of the “real thing”, totally underwhelming and uninspiring, and just plain boring.[/quote]

agree to a certain extent. i just think that everyone playing on obj servers really just breaks so many things. if its a 15 min map, people wont want to get stuck not being able to do obj, eventually someone will switch class, and enjoy it. as it stands right now, there’s no reason to play anything except fops, cov, and shotgun mercs

[QUOTE=Kendle;474112]Escort the big ol’ lump of slowness

Yawn inducing and IMO one of those things you might add to a map to add variety, but not something you base an entire map (LB / WC) on. I like that more team-mates near the EV makes it move faster, but when it’s ALL the map is about I’m gonna skip those maps when the final game is released (assuming I even play the final game).[/quote]

i dont mind it a ton but the clipping on the ev is just absolutely terrible

[QUOTE=Kendle;474112]Carry the jugs

This is wrong, just wrong, with how it’s done at the moment. The whole point of carrying something from A to B is you need team-mates to ride shotgun, and each team should have reasonable chance to get it there or get it back. Carrying something towards or away from one team’s spawn is just nuts, the routes should be longer, they should be perpendicular to each team’s spawn and there should only be one something to carry. Adding multiple jugs just rubs salt in the wound, and as it stands now carryables in XT are either just meaningless, or they’re meat-grinders.[/quote]

i miss real doc runs. a group of good players with monster meds and not having to stop and push a button. fun ****

Hopefully when / if the player base increases Execution and TDM will be played more, but for now I just can’t bring myself to jump on Casual Objective, it’s just mind-numbingly underwhelming. Sorry.

i personally hate tdm, but execution is decently fun. it rewards running in groups and having extended firefights

[INF3RN0]

[QUOTE=Seanza;474122]You’re right. Objectives really miss that extra dynamic of having a set of particular characters who are the only ones who can do them. I’m willing to accept the change, and I have started to… sort of.

Planting seems super fast with everybody as of the current balances, but I think this will improve greatly as the characters proficiency is varied. Repair/defuse is pretty okay for me as it stands.[/QUOTE]

I still think that most maps in ETQW for example would have still been really enjoyable with the class proficiencies we have in Xt. If anything I think it was the fact that the objs were more dynamic in terms of how you could interact with them, as well as the maps and side-objs being simply better in all aspects.

[Hundopercent]

I agree Kendle and hopefully you make it to OBT. They said they are reworking the maps to the 10-15 minute range which should compact a lot of the excitement vs dragging it out to a point of boredom. I believe the message has been received about the maps needing work and they’re taking the steps to get them where they need to be.

[Ruben0s]

What makes it boring for me is that they are based on an old mechanic, but dumbed down to the bone.

I mean seriously pressing F all the time is not exiting. Apart from pressing F there are some other things that bother me as well.

Why does the opposing team have to know that I’m construction something? or know how long it takes before the objective explodes (common no more ninja’s allowed in the game?)?

Apart from that the maps are linear as **** / small and they have objectives that could fit in the year 2003 (slow ass moving EV, boring doc runs, boring pickup mechanism, no important side objectives, no forward spawns, no capturable spawn-locations, no free plantable C4’s etc. etc.) , but I thought that we would see at least some progression after all the years that have passed, but instead Xt went ten steps back.

Combine this with all the other things that are wrong with this game (boring movement, classless objectives, low learning curve, no spawn waves, no spawn timer, infinite sprint, hold-ups (reloading) etc. etc), and you got a boring ass not fun playing game. At least that is my experience, I hope this game will get millions of casuals.

[INF3RN0]

To further note; the old objectives that were simple plants, constructs, hacks, etc were more fun because you could perform jumps, dodges, prones, etc while doing them as well as being able to freely place explosives in an interesting manner. Even then they weren’t really that exciting, but if anything needs some progressive thinking and change it would definitely be obj design. Part of the reason people aren’t motivated to do objectives is simply because shooting people instead is just more fun. Doc runs are so much more favored simply because it is the most dynamic obj type.

[BomBaKlaK]

yep 100% agree objectives like capturable zone instead of building it it’s just meaningless and not fun at all …
and all other obj type are just boring …

[shaftz0r]

[QUOTE=Ruben0s;474132]What makes it boring for me is that they are based on an old mechanic, but dumbed down to the bone.

I mean seriously pressing F all the time is not exiting. Apart from pressing F there are some other things that bother me as well.

Why does the opposing team have to know that I’m construction something? or know how long it takes before the objective explodes (common no more ninja’s allowed in the game?)?

Apart from that the maps are linear as **** / small and they have objectives that could fit in the year 2003 (slow ass moving EV, boring doc runs, boring pickup mechanism, no important side objectives, no forward spawns, no capturable spawn-locations, no free plantable C4’s etc. etc.) , but I thought that we would see at least some progression after all the years that have passed, but instead Xt went ten steps back.

Combine this with all the other things that are wrong with this game (boring movement, classless objectives, low learning curve, no spawn waves, no spawn timer, infinite sprint, hold-ups (reloading) etc. etc), and you got a boring ass not fun playing game. At least that is my experience, I hope this game will get millions of casuals.[/QUOTE]

To further note; the old objectives that were simple plants, constructs, hacks, etc were more fun because you could perform jumps, dodges, prones, etc while doing them as well as being able to freely place explosives in an interesting manner. Even then they weren’t really that exciting, but if anything needs some progressive thinking and change it would definitely be obj design. Part of the reason people aren’t motivated to do objectives is simply because shooting people instead is just more fun. Doc runs are so much more favored simply because it is the most dynamic obj type.

/thread

10chars

[meat]

Not much more to say Kendle said it pretty well.

WC was a playable map, but now has turned into a boring escort mission. Its not even close to a 15 minute map in its current state. repair the EV and get 3 people escorting it to the lift and the map will be over in less than 10 minutes. It might make it close to 15 minutes if the carry objective at the church was restored. Just not enough objectives, and variety of objectives to make this map enjoyable to play anymore.

Lack of class based play, for a NEW class based FPS. They advertise it as a class based shooter, and then give me know reason to play soldier or engie.
why bother anyone can plant and disarm c4. The Rambo medics are going to flock to this game, hell they can even do the objectives if they feel like helping there team. Only classes that have a purpose at this point is medic and FOPS, they keep the team alive and in ammo.

Covert aside from sniping, and spotting doesn’t have any objectives designed for them, like hacking doors, turrets, or control consoles. I really miss being able to steal someones skin, that in its self would give me a reason to play covert. The active camouflage is not that impressive of a covert ability, anyone can see you coming its just harder to get a head shot. Replace it with the ability to steal a enemies skin and it would make the class more desirable to play.

Haven’t seen any coveys planting, disarming C4, give them something to do besides snipe!

Lack of class based objectives is my major complaint, Give players a reason to play the class and they will. Fill a pub server with noobs and half or more are going to be medics. The fast TTK will drive them to the medic class like lemmings going over a cliff. They will self medicate themselves like a addict with a unlimited supply of drugs, and only care about their KDR. Sawbones is going to be really popular merc.

I am hoping that data from echo will show that the classes are not all being played equally. Give each class a real reason to be played, class specific objectives in each map. It would provide a more diverse team and the variety that’s needed to make the maps enticing to play

[Pytox]

We need side objectives ( capturable spawns ) and side doors and also more interesting interactive objects, like railgun or mp_tram.

[Humate]

I enjoy that players are bit more predictable with classless objectives, however I would have to agree with the OP.

As for the objectives themselves, I agree with rubenos in terms of interaction. Everything should be triggered off mouse1 not F. The F key should only switch to the tool for those that cant be bothered figuring out the key they need.

Also theres no depth to the charge mechanics - do I cover my team-mate while he takes 10 billion years to plant, or do I arm it with him to speed up the process? Or do I plant an extra charge? You would think with the classless style, this sort of depth wouldnt be an issue. Yet we are using Brink charge mechanics.

[rookie1]

Glad Kendle brought this to the table hes words has more weight then mine

[Angrim]

[QUOTE=Humate;474146]I enjoy that players are bit more predictable with classless objectives, however I would have to agree with the OP.

As for the objectives themselves, I agree with rubenos in terms of interaction. Everything should be triggered off mouse1 not F. The F key should only switch to the tool for those that cant be bothered figuring out the key they need.

Also theres no depth to the charge mechanics - do I cover my team-mate while he takes 10 billion years to plant, or do I arm it with him to speed up the process? Or do I plant an extra charge? You would think with the classless style, this sort of depth wouldnt be an issue. Yet we are using Brink charge mechanics.[/QUOTE]

Pretty much agree with everything here.

The F-key interactions make sense for new players as they provide a sort of failsafe way to interact with primary objectives. This is a good thing, but also easily preserved by making this the default option and allowing players to “opt in” for advanced interactions. I don’t really see a reason to disallow more advanced players from using the traditional system of selecting the correct tool from a weapon bank and using it by holding mouse1 while manually aiming at the objective. This system has several advantages:

First of all, it gives the player much more freedom. Freedom of movement is important for this kind of game. In any situation. While it is currently possible to interrupt repair and hack processes to temporarily dodge or deal with a threat, this feels extremely slow and clunky - almost like it was never intended to work in the first place. Planting a charge can not be interrupted at all. Players should be able to freely move and dodge threats while working on any objective as long as they stay within a certain area and keep the objective in their sights. The current system simply does not allow this.

Secondly, this can be used along with other changes to allow for more exciting decisions and plays around objectives. Players should be able to “hide” charges within reason. Different charge objectives should feature areas of different sizes and shapes in order to stop them from feeling to similar to each other and allow for charges to be placed manually (using the weapon bank method) to provide options. Without options there are no decisions and completing objectives becomes boring much more quickly. Most “blow stuff up” objectives in W:ET and Quake Wars gave players the choice of either choosing the quickest (and often most obvious) way to plant charge or invest some valuable time to “hide” the charge. The system currently in place for Extraction pretty much makes sure the player has no choice at all. Disallowing multiple charges makes this even worse.

Edit: I want to add the last objective on the map Waterloo as an example of why the current system is inferior. Yes, only allowing charges to be placed at the front of the containers makes this objective easier to grasp for new players. However, at the same time, attackers have absolutely zero choice in how to approach this last objective. There is no decision to be made about where to plant the charge by carefully weighing up which part of the container is more easily defended in the current situation versus witch part is currently the easiest to plant a charge on.
There is also no variety. The current system makes sure that this last objective pretty much plays out in exactly the same way every time the map is played. Compared to W:ET and Quake Wars, this is a huge step backwards.

[Kendle]

Sorry I didn’t get back to this last night, I hate to drop a thread on the forum then bugger off, but thanks for the replies, the fact I’ve had more rep given for this thread than anything else I’ve posted here suggests I’ve hit a nerve.

There are certainly some small issues that could be improved on easily, such as the “F” key. I’m not sure if this is going to be addressed but simply placing every tool in a weapon-bank and allowing us to select it and press mouse1 to use it is something I guess could be done relatively easily and have a major impact on the feel of the game everywhere.

The point Angrim makes above about where the charges are placed on Waterloo last stage is also a good one. This happens a lot in XT, it makes the game feel scripted, objectives playing out the same way every time. Again, I’d assume this would be viable to address, to the extent the mechanics of planting a charge could be improved upon everywhere it currently occurs.

The biggest issue for me however is basic map design, not the sort of thing that can easily be “tweaked”.

For example, consider the great objective run maps from past games. Village, Beach and Ice in RTCW. Frostbite in RTCW and ET. Radar in ET. All these maps had a common theme. An object had to be taken, from an enemy base or somewhere the other side of enemy spawn, and brought back via a long and treacherous route, back past enemy spawn, all the way across the map to a final delivery point.

The maps were tactical in that there were usually 2 major routes, 1 short but dangerous, the other long but prone to interception. Getting to the collection point was often difficult, but also often hugely more achievable by capturing a forward spawn. The concept of a single “objective guy” was maintained by there being only one object to transport, therefore carryable by only one person, rendering the rest of the team into a supporting role.

NONE of this happens in XT. None of it.

The game as it stands currently is a bland, boring, pale shadow of previous games. I hate to say that, I hate to be the “do it like it was in <insert favourite game here>” guy, I want to embrace the new, I want change, I want different. But “different” as in “less”, much less, is not the kind of change I had in mind.

[Angrim]

Funnily enough, I always thought the simplified objective interactions in Brink where the byproduct of a multiplatform game that had to function both on PC and consoles. Naturally, I was surprised and confused to see this weird press “F” to do stuff version of objectives implemented in Extraction.

The only possible explanation I can see right now is an attempt to make the game more accessible for newer and more perhaps more casual players. Which is fine. A F2P game needs a broad player base. I can accept that.

At the same time, though, if SD wants to keep RCTW, W:ET and QW veterans happy and interested in XT, they really need to add some depth to the objectives. If map reworks/new maps focused on more interesting objectives are not an option until some time after release, at least rework the interactions to allow for similar level of depths as in RCWT/W:ET/QW. It should be perfectly possible for interactions to both have depth and be accessible for new players.

[DarkangelUK]

[QUOTE=Ruben0s;474132]
Why does the opposing team have to know that I’m construction something? or know how long it takes before the objective explodes (common no more ninja’s allowed in the game?)?[/QUOTE]

I raised this quite a while back about global objective announcements, they were removed for a while but seemed to have come back. When I asked Anti about it he seemed to think it was a mistake. But yes I agree, we were on Waterloo and the defense had us pinned down in the spawn after we blew the wall, I managed to sneak through and run unopposed to the hack objective, of course sure enough a big giant announcement came up letting everyone know I was hacking and I got taken out quickly. As I said before, it’s like the defense have an extra player on their side making sure they don’t fail due to sloppy defending.

Everything else I agree with as well. I absolutely loath EV escort missions, it’s just a mess