THUNDER: What he actually needs!


(zrs1337) #1

TLDR version:
So I see a lot of talk about Thunder’s grenade, everyone is trying to compare him to Fragger, but it’s just stupid. I agree that grenades need a little work too, but it’s not his main problem…
But if you want to rework his ability, the best solution is to remove the flash effect and replace it with an electric explosion that deals moderate damage, like 30-50 dmg. It would still stun them, mess with the screen like it does now, but no flash just a bit damage and Thunder would be already much more useful.
Also he is big and slow and his damage output is avarge at best.
So I think what Thunder needs a little buff to his MK46, let’s say increase the damage to body by 1 or 2, that increases the dps of the gun to be a bit above avarge and maybe give him a bit more health so he is not that easy to kill.

Explanation:
His biggest problem really is just being too avarge at everything, he doesn’t have any strong attribute in his kit.
A lot of other mercs have abilties that deal heavy damage, deny areas, etc. even engineers. Also engineers already have the ability to repair/plant/defuse really fast compared to other mercs. So they are already good at least 2 things.
Fire supports deal huge damage with their abilties and provide ammo for their teammates, they’re already good at 2 things.
While we have Thunder who is supposed to be an assault but he is just not that good at it. Even Fletcher is at least as good for an assault as Thunder… Thunder only has a crowd control abiltiy which isn’t that bad, but it only gives utility, no damage like other assaults, and it requires high level of teamplay to actually be effective. But ususally in games your teammates never follow your nades, they just like to hide and wait for kills to come, etc… :smiley:

But let’s compare him to the other 3 assaults.
His movement Health and Movement Speed is between Fragger and Rhino, like his size too.
Fragger 150 HP, 385 MS; Thunder 160 HP 375 MS; Rhino 200 HP, 350 MS; and we have Nader with stats more similar to Fire Supports with 120 HP and 420 MS.

Thunder has 10 more HP than Fragger and 40 less than Rhino. While his MS is 10 less than Fragger and 25 more than Rhino.
I think his HP for his size and movement speed should be a little bit higher, like 165-170. That’s one thing he needs.

The area where Thunder lacks the most in my opinion is damage.
His default primary weapon is MK46 which is most similar to Fragger’s K-121.
According to the wiki they have similar body dps, but playing the game it feels like that K-121 jut deals more damage.
MK46 has 11/22 body/headshot damage per hit, while K-121 has 17/34.
While MK46 has higher rate of figher and higher magazine capacity it still doesn’t feel as good as K-121 at all.
It’s a machine gun with the damage of an SMG just bigger magazine capacity.
Yeah on paper it looks ok, it’s balanced compared to other weapons, but the problem is that the only damage source of Thunder is his weapons. And he can run and jump around like a mad goat like other mercs beacuse he is big and slow.

He is like Rhino, big, slow but he has less HP and less damage output.
Minigun has like the same damage per hit as MK46, it’s 10/20 vs 11/22.
Just MK46 has 725 RPM of fire rate and minigun has 1800 RPM.
133 body dps vs 300 body dps and Rhino has shotgun if he gets in trouble, which is also really strong weapon.

As you see Rhino has brutal fire power and high health in compensation for his big size and slowness while Thunder only has avarge at best fire power and an OK crowd control ability that can affect himself.


(MrLashnibro) #2

I don’t think you need to buff the MK45 at all really, it’s high rate of fire already compensates for it’s low damage. You go for headshots and this thing annihilates anything in it’s way (except for the Aura-Rhino combo)


(Tom2160) #3

I think he would be so much better if you couldn’t concuss yourself. It means that whilst people look away or run away from the grenade you can simply shoot them in the back… :slight_smile:


(BananaSlug) #4

just buff his health and lower the hitbox, his grenades and mk46 are fine, i would like to see change for timmik soo its not just m4 with bigger punch


(DexterGrif) #5

YES PLZ


(inscrutableShow) #6

[quote=“zrs1337;28458”]TLDR version:
But if you want to rework his ability, the best solution is to remove the flash effect and replace it with an electric explosion that deals moderate damage, like 30-50 dmg. It would still stun them, mess with the screen like it does now, but no flash just a bit damage and Thunder would be already much more useful.[/quote]

Erm… It’s a flashbang. It’s doing what it’s supposed to do. Removing the blinding effect is like making him a whole new ability. It completely changes his role. As is right now, he’s supposed to blind the enemy, then tear them apart with his maximum dakka MK46. You say that his grenade needs to do damage, but that’s not its role. It is, like you said, a crowd control ability. A blind enemy is as good as dead in a close quarters indoor firefight, which is what Thunder excels at. Making the conc nade do damage just makes him into another Fragger, but with a better MG, which is what the devs were trying to avoid when they split Dazzler into Thunder and Fragger. Fragger got the better grenade and worse MG, and Thunder got the worse grenade and better MG. Voila, balance.


(SaulWolfden) #7

Flash effect completely removed, it hinders him and doesn’t even really do much as people can still easily kill others while flashed. The concussion disorienting effect can stay, deployables should be fried permanently. Health buffed to 170 to better match his slow movespeed. His LMG buffed by 1-2 damage so it’s not just a SMG with an extended mag. Head hitbox reduced so he isn’t automatically an easier target than Rhino.


(SzGamer227) #8

Starts by saying that comparing Thunder to Fragger is stupid
Proceeds to suggest that Conc Nades should deal damage

Was anyone else thrown off by this dramatic contradiction?

But seriously, if you want Thunder to be in his own niche, why do you want to make his Conc Nades a generic low-damaging combat ability that is outclassed by Fragger in basically every way?

I stand by giving Thunder 10 more health to match his speed and size and having his Concs cause Debilitation, turning them into the powerful teampush/disruption tool they were designed to be without inconsistent handicaps like flash.


(watsyurdeal) #9

Thunder doesn’t need to be slower, if anything he needs to be faster, so he can get there in time while enemies are suffering from his concussion grenades.

I think we should remove the flash effect, and go from there. To me, a grenade that deals some damage and disorients people makes a lot of sense.

Deals a max of 60 and a min of 40, and maybe the concussion greatly blurs your vision. A lot less difficult on the eyes than a brite white screen.


(zrs1337) #10

[quote=“SzGamer227;176317”]>Starts by saying that comparing Thunder to Fragger is stupid

Proceeds to suggest that Conc Nades should deal damage

Was anyone else thrown off by this dramatic contradiction?

But seriously, if you want Thunder to be in his own niche, why do you want to make his Conc Nades a generic low-damaging combat ability that is outclassed by Fragger in basically every way?

I stand by giving Thunder 10 more health to match his speed and size and having his Concs cause Debilitation, turning them into the powerful teampush/disruption tool they were designed to be without inconsistent handicaps like flash.[/quote]

Yeah I said that Thunder is not like Fragger in his current state, beacuse his grenades do different things… Then I was just saying if people really want the conc nade to be reworked then maybe make him work like other assaults and give him damage…


(Cuck) #11

i agree thunder needs to be unique, i agree thunder can fill his own crowd control role

but

having a weak ability (visual impair compared to red eye smoke) is pretty annoying
imagine if red eye cant see thru his own smoke. would you still using him?
remember, both are 50k merc so at least both needs to have a cool ability
(by cool i mean overpowered)

why not making the emp radius bigger like really big it can go thru walls
but the flash still the same?

win win for everyone eh?


(SaulWolfden) #12

[quote=“buffMonorail;176448”]i agree thunder needs to be unique, i agree thunder can fill his own crowd control role

but

having a weak ability (visual impair compared to red eye smoke) is pretty annoying
imagine if red eye cant see thru his own smoke. would you still using him?
remember, both are 50k merc so at least both needs to have a cool ability
(by cool i mean overpowered)

why not making the emp radius bigger like really big it can go thru walls
but the flash still the same?

win win for everyone eh?[/quote]

Thunder will continue to lose while the flash effect remains.


(ClemClem7) #13

Make his concussion the same as the one in payday 2. When I get concussed, I just don’t know we’re I am :wink:
Seriously, it’s not a flash bang, but a concussion grenade. And flash effect is more annoying for both ennemies and thunder himself (fuc*ing white screen, it kill my eyes everytime). But if you know how to use it, it’s a good ability. Just throw it in room without looking in it. It’s not a 1v1 ability, it’s a crowd control ability.
You can push in a room and clear it with a good throw and good timing. When you know how you throw it, you can avoid the problem of the self flash effect. If you throw it random or in a 1v1 in a corridor, so may be it’s time to learn playing with his grenade


(Dysfnal) #14

Make his concussion grenades temporarily disable game audio, team quick chat, and hit direction (when you get shot, it would just look liek you’d taken fall damage. Any one of these could be changed or removed, but they’re ideas