Thoughts on Phantom as of 5/19/16 Update


(watsyurdeal) #1

Intro

So before I get started, let me make something clear. For those of who question the validity of my ideas or opinions, look here. I play stealth classes, a LOT, I’m no expert or by no means have a more valid opinion than yours, but I would expect you at least read and fully grasp my ideas before you spew words from your mouth.

How is Phantom currently?

So first, let’s talk about this EMP. I feel like an adult who’s trying to tell a kid how to do something, like, they’re trying, and they’re close, and you wanna be patient, but ultimately you just wish you could do it yourself. The EMP is close to a concept I presented previously, but it’s still not quite there.

Granted, it is a really damn good buff. I can now get to any target I please without needing to worry about mines, turrets, or healing stations, allowing me to eliminate Auras, or any merc hugging a station like a dog humping your leg, and make sneaky plants, defuses, and repairs. But, there’s also the argument that it gives away your position, and this is true, it’s pretty easy to assume a Phantom is near when a deployable goes out. But granted, the sound, and the “Hey I’m invisible but not really” cloak already gave you away so…yea. Imo it’s kind of a mute point, but the buff is still nice.

The new loadout cards I really really like, there’s at least 3 loadouts now I can safely say are worth it. The C64, CR54, and CR94, all damn good and fit someone’s preferred way of playing Phantom. Thought I still think the cards could be better.

For one, Machete and knife, for sure, whatever is the more damaging knife, Phantom should have it, and the Machete is a good middle ground between the knife and katana.

Second, I definetely think the loadouts could be as follows, a melee focused loadout, a gun focused loadout, and a niche or out there loadout, for each primary. So for example, the CR94 is clearly a gun loadout, but it’d be nice if we had a melee centric loadout for the Crotzni as well. I also would like to see some other augments introduced like Explodywhateverthehellitscalled, if my EMP nade idea is added eventually.

Overall, the meta for Phantom’s cards is better, Quick Slash is great, the cards are all somewhat or absolutely viable. And the EMP field is not a bad buff imo, the main thing is now Undercover is not a mandatory augment.

Also, you can still run fast, just press 4 to equip the refractive armor and run, it’s not like you’d use your melee anyhow. XD

How could he be improved?

I will say this once, EMP GRENADE

Why have a field when a ranged option separate from the refractive armor makes so much more sense???

Here’s how it goes, the EMP Nade works like any other nade, you throw it, and any deployables within it’s radius are disabled, and marked on ally huds. The icon used for the Bomb Sqaud augment? Yea, basically that, but you can see it through walls while the deployable is inactive.

This would have a 15 second cooldown, and it’s radius can be increased with Explody.

The second improvement, is still the armor.

I will say this again, we need stealth, not a tankiness. 120 HP would more than cover for that.

We need cloak that actually hides us well when walking, crouch walking, or standing still. Running should be punished somewhat, but for Phantom to be viable he needs to be able to get behind an enemy’s front line in plain sight and without needing to flank or stay out of people’s peripheral vision.

That’s the only way he’ll be more useful.

That, and if we remove the EMP field let’s revert the to his cooldown back.

I’d even argue for full 100% invis still, the way it’d work is simple. Pressing the command for Quick Ability 1, activates and equips the armor, so you’re not only running at full speed but you’re also activating it immediately, and in order to attack you have to deactivate it or switch weapons. Similar to Blacklight Retribution’s cloak actually, the difference being you are completely invisible to enemies, except Red Eye of course.

But if that’s too radical of a change, just removing the EMP field and making it a nade would do wonders for Phantom, he’d be an amazing close range and anti deployable merc.

Conclusion

These changes to Phantom’s cards and his armor were great, but we still have a long way to go. He’s getting closer and closer to being on par with the like of Skyhammer and Sawbonez, and I’m enjoying him way more than previously.

All in all, you did good Splash Damage, but not quite good enough.

tl;dr

Future patch notes

  • Removed Phantom’s EMP field, and he now has an EMP nade.
  • This nade disables deployables and reveals their location to allies, even through walls.
  • Phantom’s HP is buffed to 120
  • Phantom’s Armor is removed, now Refractive Armor is just cloak.
  • Quick Ability 1 equips the armor, and switching away from the armor deactivates it.
  • Refractive Armor now gives 100% invisibility but no attacking while cloaked, and interacting with objectives deactivates it.
  • Armor cooldown now scales properly with use, every second equates to 2 seconds of cooldown, so if the duration is 8, max cooldown is 16 seconds.

(TheStrangerous) #2

I agree with you, maybe except the health buff (Back when I played TF2, one of my favorite classes to play was Spy, just to let you know).

You see, Phantom needs to be agile enough for stealth expert, though not as agile as Proxy. What I mean, is giving him the speed of around 100HP-115HP merc, so he’s fast enough and resistant to some damage.

And the cloak thing.
So you want it to be motion sensitive? I’d rather have it grant 100% invisibility for a short period of time, regardless of movement and distance.

I see you wanted the EMP grenade to be TF2 Spy’s sapper equivalent?
Someone suggested here, to give Phantom an EMP pulse, similar to Phoenix’s healing pulse, or heartbeat sensor pulse.


(watsyurdeal) #3

[quote=“TheStrangerous;181097”]I agree with you, maybe except the health buff (Back when I played TF2, one of my favorite classes to play was Spy, just to let you know).

You see, Phantom needs to be agile enough for stealth expert, though not as agile as Proxy. What I mean, is giving him the speed of around 100HP-115HP merc, so he’s fast enough and resistant to some damage.

And the cloak thing.
So you want it to be motion sensitive? I’d rather have it grant 100% invisibility for a short period of time, regardless of movement and distance.

I see you wanted the EMP grenade to be TF2 Spy’s sapper equivalent?
Someone suggested here, to give Phantom an EMP pulse, similar to Phoenix’s healing pulse, or heartbeat sensor pulse.[/quote]

The only real reason I suggested the health buff is at the expense of removing the damage absorbing aspect of the Refractive Armor, so we have a clean cloak.

While I don’t disagree he needs the agility, I’d argue that his role really doesn’t require it too much as his cloak should get him into position without much trouble. Speed is really only necessary for a pure melee focus, which is the most ineffective way to Phantom.

And as for motion sensititve vs timed, I’d argue motion sensitive allows you to be more flexible, move more slowly and be able to be near the enemy, undetected for a larger period of time. There’s a reason the Cloak and Dagger in TF2 is generally the better watch for competitive.

And the EMP nade is really only because there’s no other role he could fill. Intel wise, Aimee and Red Eye are all better than he is. But a tool that disables and displays the locations of deployables would be a niche he could fill without anyone else getting in the way. He’s already compared to the Spy, a much better fighter. He can get up in people’s faces and mow them down rather with ease, so he’s much more flexible than Spy is in that regard. So he’s not a one trick pony that’s easy to counter, and much more dependent on player skill.

That said, it’d be nice if this game had backstabs. Then he’d really be a monster, the ultimate picking class.


(Peikko) #4

Agreed. I don’t see any problems with giving him the emp as a 2nd ability.
I personally would like the cooldown to stay the same as it used to be before the recent update, but this could work too :smile:


(TheStrangerous) #5

Of course Phantom shouldn’t be melee only.

The way I play Samurai Kira, is guns for long range and Katana for close range, constantly juggling between melee and firearm. This should apply to Phantom as well. Heck, that’s how I want him to be. Not pure melee.


(Dysfnal) #6

I’d say leave the EMP as is function wise, but have a separate activation and separate cooldowns. The current form allows for easy passage by proxy mines, so if they separated the abilities, you could remain stealthy when you wanted to, protected when you wanted to, and return to the normal cooldown for the armor. I also wouldn’t mind a longer cooldown in exchange for more invis


(KattiValk) #7

I feel like your change list is too radical for SD, and to be honest, I like the armor’s utility. If SD reverted the cloak cool down nerf, maybe made him a hair harder to see, and made the EMP a grenade or pulse thing as a seperate tool, it’d be more than enough to make him a great tool.

Oh, also buff his speed or HP so he’s standardized at 110 or 120, not as a weird half split like he is now.


(jetGlass) #8

fantastic


(Drac0rion) #9

Just gonna copy some stuff over to this thread.

My opinion about him about the recent changes:

[quote=“Dracorion;181022”]To be honest, if Phantom could spot enemy mercs just for himself without marking them with the current EMP field with the EMP effect removed, it would be just perfect for him, allowing him to do his flanks well without accidentally running into enemies.

The current EMP field proves that he needs that information for flanking, as in currently the enemies are instantly aware of his presence if you happen to disable device around a corner. But if this field would detect mercs, you could approach closer and wait for the enemies to either split up or wait for your team to collapse.
(I think spotting the enemies within the field would again alert them of Phantoms presence.
If you notice them moving, you could tell which way they’re facing and maybe chase them or more preferably have one of them walk into you.)

He needs his counterplay as he has an opportunity to one-hit-kill, even with these horrible melee hitboxes.

For me personally, this change would make Phantom near perfect. He would finally be a recon, just a frontline type compared to the rest of the recon mercs that requires a little more communication with the team for maximum efficiency.
He could actually set himself up for team play and collapse on enemies with his team and wouldn’t have to just play the solo role of an annoyance in the enemy territory only taking his chances in 1v1s.
(Would still prefer +10hp and not so many melee oriented loadouts.)[/quote]

And a post I’d consider still viable for him from long ago:
http://forums.dirtybomb.nexon.net/discussion/19281/phantom-is-life-phantom-is-knife

You can see that I already considered EMP effect and the Snitch debuff effect already back then. Now both of those effects are in game and I don’t think it would be too difficult to transfer them around, just as Phantom already acquired the EMP effect.


(TheStrangerous) #10

[quote=“Dracorion;181476”]Just gonna copy some stuff over to this thread.

My opinion about him about the recent changes:

[quote=“Dracorion;181022”]To be honest, if Phantom could spot enemy mercs just for himself without marking them with the current EMP field with the EMP effect removed, it would be just perfect for him, allowing him to do his flanks well without accidentally running into enemies.

The current EMP field proves that he needs that information for flanking, as in currently the enemies are instantly aware of his presence if you happen to disable device around a corner. But if this field would detect mercs, you could approach closer and wait for the enemies to either split up or wait for your team to collapse.
(I think spotting the enemies within the field would again alert them of Phantoms presence.
If you notice them moving, you could tell which way they’re facing and maybe chase them or more preferably have one of them walk into you.)

He needs his counterplay as he has an opportunity to one-hit-kill, even with these horrible melee hitboxes.

For me personally, this change would make Phantom near perfect. He would finally be a recon, just a frontline type compared to the rest of the recon mercs that requires a little more communication with the team for maximum efficiency.
He could actually set himself up for team play and collapse on enemies with his team and wouldn’t have to just play the solo role of an annoyance in the enemy territory only taking his chances in 1v1s.
(Would still prefer +10hp and not so many melee oriented loadouts.)[/quote]

And a post I’d consider still viable for him from long ago:
http://forums.dirtybomb.nexon.net/discussion/19281/phantom-is-life-phantom-is-knife

You can see that I already considered EMP effect and the Snitch debuff effect already back then. Now both of those effects are in game and I don’t think it would be too difficult to transfer them around, just as Phantom already acquired the EMP effect.[/quote]

I remember someone suggested giving Thunder a debuff ability, which messes up other mercs abilities, by giving them bigger cooldown.

Maybe it’d work with Phantom, instead of EMP.


(Eox) #11

Those changes you are suggesting feel somewhat decent. I’d still prefer a player spotting ability though. I somewhat feel like the EMP grenade won’t be that efficient. I am also not really for buffing his hp value.

What if the EMP grenade also spotted players for 5 seconds on hit ?


(watsyurdeal) #12

[quote=“Eox;181502”]Those changes you are suggesting feel somewhat decent. I’d still prefer a player spotting ability though. I somewhat feel like the EMP grenade won’t be that efficient. I am also not really for buffing his hp value.

What if the EMP grenade also spotted players for 5 seconds on hit ?[/quote]

Aimee and Red Eye’s abilities are still better

This is my point, no matter what we do we can’t make Phantom compete with them, so we need to give him a niche that fits his role.

If you read the explanation, there a few key things about the EMP nade.

  • Disables deployables for x seconds
  • Disabled deployables are displayed on radar for the time they are disabled, think of the Bomb Squad Augment, only through walls and everyone on your team can see them.
  • Separate from the Refractive Armor, and has it’s own cooldown, and can be affected by perks like Explodydendron and Extra Supplies.

(Verticules) #13

Just a thought:
An EMP grenade is good for 1 throw. His current EMP is good for your entire path through mines and turrets to secure that aura kill on top of her station. Weither you saw them or not.


(puzzlingOverride) #14

still an annoying weaboo. can’t nerf that.

he’s just more annoying now


(KUST__LunarTM) #15

I think the EMP grenade would be much better than the EMP field. I personally play Phantom using short cloaks to get pass a few areas and to surprise attack enemies around corners. Also, I play Gun Phantom, not Melee Phantom. The EMP field specifically caters to Melee Phantoms, but leaves the Gun Phantoms in the dust. I’d much rather not have to run up into an aura nest full cloak to shut it down, thus getting everyone’s attention and in short, dying a pointless death. I am in full support of removing the EMP field and replacing it with a grenade as well as removing the base 7 second cooldown.

As for the Refractive Armour, I think it’s fine as it is. Remember when Phantom first came out and his cloak was near 100%? People complained, and now we have the Phantom we have today. If the cooldown is fixed and the EMP field replaced with the grenade, I’d love to see the cloak work like the IR Goggles, not having to wait for a full charge to enable cloak again.


(ElDingDong) #16

How would it be if the emp field around Phantom was replaced by a spotting device radius thingy?
Any enemy within that radius will be spotted and marked for a small duration.


(Eox) #17

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;181509”][quote=“Eox;181502”]Those changes you are suggesting feel somewhat decent. I’d still prefer a player spotting ability though. I somewhat feel like the EMP grenade won’t be that efficient. I am also not really for buffing his hp value.

What if the EMP grenade also spotted players for 5 seconds on hit ?[/quote]

Aimee and Red Eye’s abilities are still better

This is my point, no matter what we do we can’t make Phantom compete with them, so we need to give him a niche that fits his role.

If you read the explanation, there a few key things about the EMP nade.

[list]
[] Disables deployables for x seconds
[
] Disabled deployables are displayed on radar for the time they are disabled, think of the Bomb Squad Augment, only through walls and everyone on your team can see them.
[*] Separate from the Refractive Armor, and has it’s own cooldown, and can be affected by perks like Explodydendron and Extra Supplies.
[/list][/quote]

I was actually suggesting the spotting in addition with every other mechanics you suggested. So basically it does the same thing that you described, plus spotting enemies.


(Peikko) #18

[quote=“ElDingDong;181562”]How would it be if the emp field around Phantom was replaced by a spotting device radius thingy?
Any enemy within that radius will be spotted and marked for a small duration.
[/quote]

Well, as people have said, Aimee and Vassili do that enough. I think Phantom having an emp is better.


(TheStrangerous) #19

Maybe we should take some ideas from FORTRESS FOREVER SPY? http://www.fortress-forever.com/wiki/index.php?title=Class:Spy

I like the idea of turning enemy deployables AGAINST them. >:)
Making no footstep noise would mostly be an augment.

I say overall, when it comes to some ideas implemented to DB, they could be borrowed from Fortress Forever. Always thought of DB as “what if TF2 wasn’t cartoony and had rifles and grenades”.