Thoughts on more recons with non-sniper rifle weapons?

(NK.NewNightmare) #21

@GatoCommodore said:

@“NK.NewNightmare” said:
If you’re capable of playing with Phantom you’re never going to lose a Melee fight against Kira (Heavy attack eZ), just for the hypothesis.

if youre good at phantom, you might wanna play kira just because kira doesnt emit sound when shes flanking or when using ability.

also, if you are playing phantom for the katana, you are playing him wrong.

I don’t really see what you’re talking about, 'cause it makes absolutely NO sense. The “argument” that you would want to play Kira, because Kira doesn’t emit sound when using her ability/(or melee weapon? I don’t get really get what you wrote about) is absolute nonsene, because each and every Merc has its own unique ability - for example when playing Phantom you usually play him, because of his ablitiy and Katana and how you can play those attributes out together - and so there’s also a reason for playing Kira; (btw at that point I can comment your second statement that “if you are playing phantom for the katana, you are playing him wrong” as well, I know and agree with that. Of course WHY would you play Phantom only for the Katana [I never said that btw] - as every other Merc you play him for his unique ability or in general for the whole mercs abilities, stats and concept itself.)

ANYWAY, what I wanted to say was: that (well. as I already stated) you play a Merc for its overall concept and use etc., so the point that PHANTOM emits sound doesn’t really have any impact on the playstyles you that are given when playing with him also, because the sound mostly doesn’t raise any attraction anyway. So, it has its advantages to play PHANTOM given his abilities combined with the Katana, and those don’t have any relevance or connection to the way one uses Kira’s ability combined with the Katana, because when playing Kira with a Katana it’s just straighout just playing with a melee weapon and using it as such in given situations just as you use a Beckhill Combat Knife with Skyhammer at certain occasions. So, to say it again - playing with a melee weapon in general shares absolutely no resemblance with the way you play PHANTOM’s Ability combined with his Katana!

(Sorotia) #22

You’re right, @“NK.NewNightmare” because playing phantom with his cloak and katana is a stupid idea where are playing it with someone like Kira has agility and is hard to hit because she is small and fast.

Phantom on the other hand is just a walking target which practically screams at you that he is near by with his cloaking noise and his emp.

Which makes a better assassin? A Ninja or a walking bug lamp? (ZZZZZZZaaaaapppping everything electronic!)

(Mc1412013) #23

I k ow im gonna get hate for this but when im phantom i main the katana(when cloacked)and use the primary as a secondary most of the time if im in the center of the battle and primary as the primary if im too far away or on a balcony cloacked and i usualy stay in the top half of a pub. Right mouse slash then spray and pray them as katana and primary are progamed to my mouse thumb buttons. With the exception of ranked i usualy switch that around depending on team/map usualy i just cloak and suicide repair as i usualy get closer then the engi

(Sorotia) #24

@STARRYSOCK said:

@Artyrim said:
ONLY if they give to my Proxy a kanata and Crotzni

proxy with a PDP

Would be entertaining…seeing the pizza delivery Proxy drop her pies then try to no-scope them! :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

(Mc1412013) #25

Aprill fools 2018 event rng fools cards containing joke loadouts including but not limited to phantom,proxy, rhino sniper riffles. Rhino fragger and thunder katanas, pheonix with rocket launcher and hurtzal

(Artyrim) #26

@STARRYSOCK said:

@Artyrim said:
ONLY if they give to my Proxy a kanata and Crotzni

proxy with a PDP

I have already shotgun for that,with one more “balance” I could even oneshot from 100m

(zykeroth) #27

Never before have I seen a conversation derail from the main topic so wonderfully.

(GatoCommodore) #28

@Mc1412013 said:

@GatoCommodore said:

@“NK.NewNightmare” said:
If you’re capable of playing with Phantom you’re never going to lose a Melee fight against Kira (Heavy attack eZ), just for the hypothesis.

if youre good at phantom, you might wanna play kira just because kira doesnt emit sound when shes flanking or when using ability.

also, if you are playing phantom for the katana, you are playing him wrong.

You k ow the famous phrase “theres no wrong way to play a phantom” or was that eat a recess peanut butter cup?

well, youre right.
no wrong way to play phantom, just crappy tactics and god tier tactics
playing exclusively katana phantom is not that good tho.

(NexDroid) #29

@STARRYSOCK said:
I think SD said they wouldn’t be adding suppressors or other attachments to weapons. I’m curious if that only applies to old weapons, or if they’d consider adding an entirely new suppressed gun though.

Being able to hear your teammate’s gunshots is really important though, since it alerts you to where the action is without everyone having a mic. A silencer seems more of a negative for your own team than the enemy team. It would be better on recons though, since they typically stay far away from the front lines.

That would be an amazing weapon choice for phantom. Just give him slow firing suppressed pistol so he can sneak kill enemies at mid range without causing too much attention

(l2c) #30

@GatoCommodore said:
also, if you are playing phantom for the katana, you are playing him wrong.

What else would you play Phantom for? His super-op cloak? EMP? Every merc has guns, it’s the other stuff that makes you play them ^^ Without the Katana, I’d play Phantom WAY less.
But I agree that Kira in many ways is a better Katana merc :\

(Press E) #31

@NexDroid said:

@STARRYSOCK said:
I think SD said they wouldn’t be adding suppressors or other attachments to weapons. I’m curious if that only applies to old weapons, or if they’d consider adding an entirely new suppressed gun though.

Being able to hear your teammate’s gunshots is really important though, since it alerts you to where the action is without everyone having a mic. A silencer seems more of a negative for your own team than the enemy team. It would be better on recons though, since they typically stay far away from the front lines.

That would be an amazing weapon choice for phantom. Just give him slow firing suppressed pistol so he can sneak kill enemies at mid range without causing too much attention

Not really tbh, unless the person was already at low health or the pistol did a crapload of damage. I mean, even if you can’t hear the shot, it’s not too much trouble to see which direction the hud blood splats are facing, and then spot the decloaked phantom running away or trying to finish you off with a pistol.
And when of course whoever you shot is going to alert the rest of their team anyways, be it with their panicked gunfire or a mic in anything competitive.

You’d be better off just landing several headshots with your primary before the other person can react instead of a couple gimicky silenced pistol shots.

The only way I can see a silenced pistol on him being practical on him is if he could use it without decloaking, but SD seems to be moving away from surprise ninja moves, so I doubt it would ever happen.

(bgyoshi) #32

Giving SMGs or ARs to recon classes would just make them bad versions of every class that has explosives instead of detection.

The only classes with HP as low as recons are fast characters that either heal of have bang bang bang abilities.

I don’t think anyone is going to play a 110HP Skyhammer that can’t call airstrikes

Or a 90 HP Phoenix that can’t heal or res other players, or blow up… anything.

(Your worst knifemare.) #33

People play Phantom, he has Smg’s, he can potentially be more useful than most mercs even without his emp.

Also we don’t need more snipers so I’ll take automatic weapons for recons any time.

(Press E) #34

@bgyoshi said:
Giving SMGs or ARs to recon classes would just make them bad versions of every class that has explosives instead of detection.

The only classes with HP as low as recons are fast characters that either heal of have bang bang bang abilities.

I don’t think anyone is going to play a 110HP Skyhammer that can’t call airstrikes

Or a 90 HP Phoenix that can’t heal or res other players, or blow up… anything.

Yeah, I thought about this. But I mean, some of the long range weapons are actually really good. And considering being able to spot people or debuff them is useful as hell too, I don’t see why it couldn’t be an option.
Some people don’t like sniping or simply suck with it, so I find it weird there isn’t an option to have an alternative. I mean, just look at Aura, Proxy and Fletcher who each have non-shotgun loadouts even though they’re generally best used as shotgun mercs.
Loadouts could also help to balance out that. I mean, an absolutely amazing loadout card with a not so great weapon helps make it more practical.

But regardless of anything else, I’m not sure why they don’t at least have the option to use different weapons. As I said in my post, for a game about merc versatility, it seems weird to have 3 mercs that do pretty much the exact same thing, and have very few ways to change that playstyle.

(K1X455) #35

I’ll play Vassili more often if he had a Timik or M4.

I’ll play Phantom more often if had silenced SMGs.

I’ll play Redeye more often if instead of Grandeur SR, he has FEL-IX.

I’ll play Aimee more often if she has Dreiss AR.

one day, i’ll learn how to be an effective Recon player :neutral:

(bgyoshi) #36

@K1X455 said:
I’ll play Vassili more often if he had a Timik or M4.

Why? You could play Stoker or Skyhammer, both of which have more HP and provide ammo, one provides area denial, and the other provides EV destruction, both of which are far more valuable than a heartbeat scanner.

I’ll play Phantom more often if had silenced SMGs.

Fair

I’ll play Redeye more often if instead of Grandeur SR, he has FEL-IX.

I think you overlooked the topic of discussion

I’ll play Aimee more often if she has Dreiss AR.

hashtag Redeye2.0

@STARRYSOCK said:

But regardless of anything else, I’m not sure why they don’t at least have the option to use different weapons. As I said in my post, for a game about merc versatility, it seems weird to have 3 mercs that do pretty much the exact same thing, and have very few ways to change that playstyle.

That’s the problem with recon in this game. It doesn’t really belong at all, because spotting is only moderately useful by itself. A class that can spot an entire area AND plink one-hit kills (if skilled $$) is useful in the game. But if you remove the sniper part of recon, then the class is just inferior to all other classes that use those same weapons but have more HP and more power. A recon with an SMG could never hope to outdo the power of revives and healing, or of explosives and speed planting/repairing/defusing.

This is a core reason why Bushwhacker is pretty bad, despite having great weapons. His turret is severely underpowered, especially when you compare them to nuke pancakes or throwable remote nades… or hell, even a team shield.

What would’ve made more sense is not having recon AT ALL as a class, and having long range weapons be the Dreiss and burst rifles. Then Guardian’s shield or Bushwhacker’s turret could have the dual functionality of being a heartbeat sensor and projectile detonator. The turret could spot any enemy it sees or fires at, whereas the shield would work more like Vas’ sensor where it just spots movement all around (for catching flankers etc).

It would’ve been easy to work detection abilities into some existing mercs, without making them a recon class and without having sniper rifles.

But now that they exist, giving them SMGs or assault weapons just makes them bad versions of other classes. Sure it’d be fun for casual, but it wouldn’t be used in Ranked. The rage that people will feel when someone goes M4 Vassili instead of M4 Fragger will be real.

(K1X455) #37

Vassili with Timik or M4 means that he’ll be more involved in with the group rather than hang back.

Redeye deserves the FEL-IX. Grandeur got nerfed too much, even I won’t use it with Aimee.

(bgyoshi) #38

@K1X455 said:
Vassili with Timik or M4 means that he’ll be more involved in with the group rather than hang back.

That’s not a problem with the MOA or PDP that’s a problem with a player being shit and not sticking with the group

The only reason for a Vas to hang back is due to a strong sight line to pick off a few heads before the enemy group gets to yours. Otherwise you should be able to plink heads from a relatively close distance so you can stay in the pack.

People buy Vas for the MOA, not for the heartbeat sensor.

(K1X455) #39

@bgyoshi said:

@K1X455 said:
Vassili with Timik or M4 means that he’ll be more involved in with the group rather than hang back.

That’s not a problem with the MOA or PDP that’s a problem with a player being @$!# and not sticking with the group

The only reason for a Vas to hang back is due to a strong sight line to pick off a few heads before the enemy group gets to yours. Otherwise you should be able to plink heads from a relatively close distance so you can stay in the pack.

People buy Vas for the MOA, not for the heartbeat sensor.

Well that’s just me. It’s hipfiring the MOA and FEL-IX gives random spread unlike Timik and M4. If only MOA and FEL-IX sniper rifles could be hip fired without penalty in accuracy, I could be convinced to bring Vassili just as close.

(boerhae) #40

Uh oh let’s get discussing things bois

Hopefully this happens in the future. In my eyes Aimee and Vassili are too similar (two snipers, both with remote enemy detection, one with more spotting power and one with a more noticeable effect). The four weapons they collectively use are all long range weapons (Grandeur can be argued mid-long I guess, but it’s still frequently used like a sniper rifle). Aimee feels like a slight balance tweak for Vassili that they split into two mercs.

It would be nice to see Aimee get the SMG9 or the Blishlok or maybe even the Hurtsall or a burst rifle in the future. It would separate two very similar mercs, while still keeping Aimee a Recon, technically.

@bgyoshi I disagree with two things in your longer post above

  1. Recon mercs being out of place and one-hit kills being what saves it. Recon is out of place with the rest of the mercs, but it’s been made useful. Depending on the team, a Recon can change the game, revealing enemy positions for the rest of the team to be aware and stopping things like sneak plants/delivers and nest building. If someone is able to identify where the action is happening, it gives the team a guide on where to go to attack/defend, where to fall back to or push to, etc.

Sniping Recons are great in that they’re a failsafe of sorts. If you spot an enemy trying to pull off some sneaky maneuver, and the team isn’t doing there, you can interrupt it with a headshot. Great, but if sniping isn’t your fancy, you can spot an enemy and weaken them with an SMG or AR while your team goes in to provide backup. The core difference between the two scenarios is how much/little you trust your team and yourself, and that’s really just normal play.

If you’re playing as, for instance, a Stoker with the Mechanic augment, you can always decide whether to play objective (repairing and such) if the team isn’t doing it well, or play like a stokey stokey arti-point-chokey if you get what I mean. He’s versatile. Recons should be too.

Splitting the amount of options for Recons up would give players more options based on the situation. I, for one, cannot aim, like I couldn’t hit a fucking blimp at point blank range with an automatic shotgun lol, so it’d be great to have another option that can still benefit the team. As far as casual vs. ranked goes, I think they’d be viable in both areas. In casual it’s a nice change of pace from standard Recon, and in ranked you could use spotting for your whole team.

  1. Bushwhacker. I think he’s perfectly fine. Never once thought his turret was underpowered or weak. Instead I think of it like Stoker’s Molotov. If it gets kills that’s great, but it’s also nice for weakening enemies for you/the team to handle, or the opposite if you can lure a weak enemy into a closed area. Add in the element of surprise and some clever placement and you can change a game. Smaller, mostly unrelated point but I gotta defend ma boi

uhhhhh anyway

I defer to @STARRYSOCK 's point about weapon alternatives as well, and add this. Why not have them for recon when they exist for other mercs? Specifically, the Blishlok is a nice example. Aura and Fletcher have 2 shotguns and the Blish. Also consider Proxy’s two shotguns and the Hochfir, and Thunder’s three drastically different ARs, and Fragger’s big gun, and Javelin’s pretty different too, you get what I’m saying. Showing Recon the same treatment just makes sense at this point.

If I missed something or look stupid sorry