Thoughts on Game Size and Game Meta.

(triteTongs) #1

Competitive mode is 5v5.
Public servers range from 6v6 to 8v8.

So, what is the game balanced for? Does it want to be a pub game, or a comp game?

I feel like competitive mode needs to be 6v6 only.

In competitive mode, it seems like it’s always the same meta. 2 Sawbones, an engi, a fragger, and an ammo merc.
Imagine trying to play redeye, or phantom, or stoker… or really anyone who isn’t a medic, engineer, or an ammo merc. The only person who really could be replaced would be a fragger. But if they can’t kill as well as a fragger, then there is no real point to field the other mercs. I really hate that about the game.

UNLESS, it’s 6v6. I think that extra player could really open up the use of other mercs.

And I think we can all agree, 8v8’s are doing nothing but promoting ability spam. 8v8’s make specific mercs incredibly strong while making others incredibly weak. I don’t see how you can even balance for that WHILE balancing for 5v5’s.

This is what confuses me so much about the design of the game. It’s trying to be so many things. Quick play vs server browser, comp mode, game sizes, game modes, merc choices, shared weapons, etc. It’s trying to appeal to too many people at once. I have no idea if it’s working or not, but I know it makes the game feel a bit ‘muddied’.

Overwatch is built around 6v6. Dota is built around 5v5. I can bet you overwatch will be more comp worthy, just because it’s locked at 6v6. It also feels like both teams could have completely unique heroes and still have an equal chance at winning. Same with Dota. I just wish Dirty Bomb had a bit more of that feeling.

(moonlitAbility) #2

Overwatch is basically a fps moba. I seriously have my doubts that it will ‘kill’ dirty bomb. That said i agree on 6v6

(XavienX) #3

Yea, since people are used to playing 6v6 minimum, than comp is suddenly 5v5 which kinda ruins your setup. Sometimes 2 of some type of merc so they can back each other up.

(Amerika) #4

Back in the day Call of Duty 1 used to be 6v6. And what happened is almost all matches ended up being a stomp for whoever was on defense and winning only a few defensive rounds meant you would most likely win the match easily. It was easy to close up entry points with that extra person either as a rotating defender or simply stack more.

I took over as the lead admin for CAL CoD at the end of season 1 and very heavily campaigned for the game to be changed to a 5v5 format. It made teams have to choose where to stack and removed the rotating defender on maps but it also made the game more appealing to LAN tournaments back then (CPL). It passed and it worked exactly as I had hoped. Matches started having an even amount of wins on both offense and defense, matches were more enjoyable to watch overall due to defenses not dominating and the game was picked up for a few LAN events.

The reason why I’m saying this is you have to factor in just how much the extra person can help or hurt both offensively or defensively. Honestly, I am not certain if the extra person would help the defense too much in this type of game. I think it might. But I definitely agree that it would open up a slot for a non-traditional merc to be thrown into the mix…especially if there is a one merc only rule in place.

This sounds like something that could be tested out in a cup for DBNation or some other weekend tournament. I’m interested in it if skeptical.

(Kirel) #5

If I recall, DBNation plans to do 3v3’s and 6v6’s in their future cups. I guess we’ll see if this format changes the whole competitive scene around.

(Jurmabones) #6

I actually quite enjoy 5v5 format. 6v6 competitive should be an option though.

(triteTongs) #7

It can’t, and won’t kill Dirty Bomb.
Dirty bomb is it’s own game. But I’m not sure what game that is.

I think it can take a lot of cues FROM overwatch though, specifically how all the heroes feel like they can synergize well with others. I feel like that’s missing in the game. It makes WATCHING competitive DB games really boring. “Oh, they are playing sawbones and fraggers again? Cool.”

I know that’s harder to do in Dirty Bomb because of the shared weapons and simple abilities, but I just hate the fact some mercs are straight up balanced to be pub-stars only.

[quote=“Amerika;66556”]
This sounds like something that could be tested out in a cup for DBNation or some other weekend tournament. I’m interested in it if skeptical.[/quote]
This is what I’m interested in too.

Getting the spawn timers and spawn locations to be fair for attackers AND defenders seems like it’s a very delicate balance to achieve. I just can’t see how you can keep that balance with so many game sizes.

(CCP115) #8

Get rid of 8v8 pubs. They shouldn’t even exist really.

Make competitive 6v6. If someone leaves or gets AFK kicked, then someone on the enemy team can leave safely with the game’s permission. Then it’s a 5v5. This system would allow for leniency on hackers/AFKers/laggers.

(ttownjoe) #9

no i don’t think we all can agree, and where there is no agreement, it best to give players the choice. I think it should be a wide range some 5v5, 6v6, 7v7, 8v8, all great but when private servers come about it should be any size they choose up to say 12v12! pub matches would be great fun indeed.

(Gi.Am) #10

The game revolves around 5vs5.
The only reason why we got the higher playercount servers in pub is that a higher playercount reduces the impact a single player can have on the game (wether good or bad).
Thats to offset the expected skill imbalances and the lack of teamplay.

If anything it should be the other way around and 5 vs 5 pub servers should be introduced (atleast in my opinion).

The Meta is not affected by the playersize.
Meta is what most teams perceive as the strongest teamcomposition/playstyle making comp 6vs6 would only mean that we get a new default comp. Shure maybe the new slot would be filled with a Nader, or a permanent sniper, maybe a third Sawbonez, second Fragger. But 90% of the time you would see that same new composition.
That is what Meta is. Everyone plays the same “OP” combination. Till someone things outside the box and finds a combination that utterly destroys former “OP” combination which than becomes new Meta “OP” combination.

Only way out of this, is to get so balanced that at any given time. Several combinations are viable and teams realize that this is the case, instead of them chasing, that one dreamteam combination that lets them win on easy mode.

(triteTongs) #11

[quote=“Gi.Am;66780”]
Meta is what most teams perceive as the strongest teamcomposition/playstyle making comp 6vs6 would only mean that we get a new default comp. Shure maybe the new slot would be filled with a Nader, or a permanent sniper, maybe a third Sawbonez, second Fragger. But 90% of the time you would see that same new composition.
That is what Meta is. Everyone plays the same “OP” combination. Till someone things outside the box and finds a combination that utterly destroys former “OP” combination which than becomes new Meta “OP” combination.

Only way out of this, is to get so balanced that at any given time. Several combinations are viable and teams realize that this is the case, instead of them chasing, that one dreamteam combination that lets them win on easy mode.[/quote]

Right
That’s what I’m worried about if it goes 6v6, it’s just going to add an additional permanent fragger, sniper, nader etc. to the mix. It might not solve anything because the issue is somewhere completely different.

Whatever makes it so there’s no “dreamteam comp” is EXACTLY what I’m after. Dirty Bomb plays like TF2 comp, where there was an obvious set meta even with 9 classes to pick from. Yet, DB is clearly going the overwatch/league/dota route by introducing new mercs during the lifespan of the game.

If half the mercs are just pub-stars and not even viable in comp, then why even have a system like that?

(Gi.Am) #12

Yeah Meta can be annoying tho I have seen it in LOL that balancing is only one part of the equation, players/teams play a big role in it too. In Lol there are tons of viable ways to play yet everyone believes that there is only one true way and everyone who doesn’t follow “is stupid and the reason why we will loose” breaking that can be pretty hard.

On the flipside Meta as boring as it can be, has one quality in my eyes. It generates a sort of pseudo teamplay. Everyone knows their role and what to do. In a rigid meta where for example sawbonez is always babysitting Fragger. People will play acordingly without the problem of miscommunication, without the need to have a halfhour teamtalk beforehand.

But still rigid Meta is boring, go out experiment more with different teamcompositions.

(approvingGlow) #13

With the abilities the mercs have now, 12v12 would be absolutely pointless.

I just joined a round of obj_chapel 8v8, it was already at the end. The attacking team had 3 Kira’s and 2 Skyhammers. It was unplayable. All we defenders saw were perma-orbital lasers in our spawn and airstrikes; the players weren’t bad, but it was not possible to leave the spawn area anymore.

Now translate that to 12v12…
6 kiras, 4 skyhammers, 2 sawbonez? 6 kiras would basically mean you have 2 lasers on the field ALL the time…

(srswizard) #14

Still waiting for those 5v5 min 10 or even min 20/30 servers.
I mean, half of the current min 10 servers, are never in use anyway, and they’re all 7v7, for no reason.