The X vs X Question

(n-x) #1

I have been wondering about this since ages but @Xenithos Poll (Click here) brought it back to my mind. Whats the thing with all the different formats of basically one and the same game?

Ranked = 5vs5
CMM = 6vs6
Server browser = 7vs7/8vs8

plus the variances of Obj/SW, desynced/synced Spawntimers, FF on/off, Collision on/off

This makes the game feel all inconsistent. If you want to play with less people in the server you have to go to CMM and Ranked. But if you additionally want to play with synced timers, you can only go to ranked. But there the queue times are too long and the balance is crap. So you have to decide between low amount of players or synced timers. If synced timers are more important to you you have to go to Server Browser. Isn’t it time to streamline this clusterfuck? It is always stated that DB is balanced around the ranked setting. So why on earth is the setting the game is balanced for the most difficult to get in?

Why is it ok to have to pull through a ranked game 4vs5 because there is no back filling, but CMM cant be 5vs5 (even though it has back filling) because playing 4vs5 the 1-2 minutes until the new player joins would be unreasonable for the players on the server.

Why are synced timers in Ranked & Server Browser ok but not in CMM?

Why is FF off in every mod, but then suddenly on in ranked?

It really feels that SD tries everything to keep their customers away from the way the game is intended to be played. And why spread the already small player base over so many only slightly different modes. This only leads to long queue times in ranked, unbalanced games in CMM (the direct opposite of what CMM should be), and players who flock to Server Browser (the mode you basically want to stop supporting) because there they can jump in quickly, see if the game is somehow balanced and if not, they can leave again. I would love to finally get some answers to that, since this topic has been brought up repeatedly in the last years without being answered satisfyingly or at all. So, what you say @stayfreshshoe is this topic worth some response in some form? I would really appreciate it.

And since we should not only complain but also offer solutions, here is my solution to it.

Merge ranked and CMM into one mod with ranked rules + back filling. There you can queue as 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Give some rewards to lobbies of 4 and 5 (as initiative for team building). If your telemetry shows you that there are a lot of regular 5 men lobbies queuing, open up a seperat queue for 5 men lobbies only which has special (ranked) rewards. This would take care of TKers, leavers, complete noobs queuing with vets and so on. Ranked would basically become clan wars, which it should be in my opinion, because right now your rank is highly depending on the lottery if you get someone good or complete scrubs in your team. This way you would put the responsibility of balancing the team itself in the hand of the players and the game only needs to match teams against each other which are more or less homogenous in skill. + People would really get to used the game how it is supposed to be played.

Move Objective Mode to Server Browser with the current server browser rules and let people just fool around.

These changes would, imo, take care of so many fundamental problems DB has. From low skilled players to player retention. I am sure every aspect of the game would benefit.

(Chris Mullins) #2

Back in the days of Quick Join (before Casual Matchmaking was released), Casual Objective with smaller teams was the most popularly played gamemode by quite some margin. Because of this when CMM went live that was the gamemode it supported. If we selected one of the other gamemodes then either CMM would not of had the numbers it needed for balanced matches (as people didn’t want to play that mode) or players would have stopped playing as they didn’t enjoy that gamemode as much as they would have 6v6 OBJ.

I know where you’re coming from. I personally would much prefer if either 5v5 or 6v6 Stopwatch was the gamemode you played in CMM, however as only a small portion of the playerbase played DB this way before CMM was launched, it made little sense to release with this being the mode CMM was centred around. And this continues to be the case. I think the main reason why this seems like an issue is it’s now a self-fulfillinf prophecy. As 6v6 OBJ is the main/easiest way to play the game, of course it’s going to be the most popular, but it was the most popular way to play before this became the case.

As for merging Ranked and CMM into one mode, I don’t believe this is something we would do as each are played for different reasons. The way I look at it is:

  • Server Browser: For fun, warming up, trying new Mercs, learning grenades etc.
  • CMM: Practising strats with teams, trying out players
  • Ranked: Playing seriously

Thank you for writing this up. I’ll send it across to some of the other devs to have a read through as well. It’s good food-for-thought!

(n-x) #3

@stayfreshshoe thank you very much for the reply, just some additions to what you said:

Back in the days of Quick Join (before Casual Matchmaking was released), Casual Objective with smaller teams was the most popularly played gamemode by quite some margin. Because of this when CMM went live that was the gamemode it supported. If we selected one of the other gamemodes then either CMM would not of had the numbers it needed for balanced matches (as people didn’t want to play that mode) or players would have stopped playing as they didn’t enjoy that gamemode as much as they would have 6v6 OBJ.

I played during the Quick Join days and I am pretty sure that Quick Join would just “matched” you into servers which were available through server browser which were all 7vs7 and 8vs8 except the min level servers, which were 6vs6. (or was this only the case for SW and Obj. was 6vs6, it is so long ago, I cant really remember and if this was the case, did you consider players went to the mod with the lowest possible amount of players and would have gone to 5vs5 if available?)

Edit: Just found screenshots from 2016 with Objective games from 6vs6, 7vs7 and 8vs8.

  • CMM: Practising strats with teams, trying out players

And this is so not true, you cant practice strats with teams:

  • Spawn timers are desynced, so you dont get a feeling for where the enemy could be at which point of time, spawn frags a severely hindered
  • FF is off, so for medics the whole layer of killing/reviving is lost, players get away with just spamming explosives
  • Collision is off, players get used to run through bottle necks together just to realize in ranked that they get stuck there.

Please, if you want to keep it 6vs6 and Objective Mode. Fine, I dont think it is ideal, but please consider to give CMM synced Spawn timer and FF on (collision on would be the cherry on top).

Edit2: With that all being said, what is the reason for the different spawn timers?

(Chris Mullins) #4

The three points you put for practising strats I would class as playing seriously and to be done in Ranked instead, so terminology between ourselves was our enemy.

Those issues are necessary in CMM and I doubt we’ll see them go anytime soon.

  • Spawn timers are desync’d to help keep match balance. If a player drops, that team’s spawn timer is reduced to give them more opportunities to defend or take the objective
  • FF is off as this would easily be abused on purpose or by accident by unknowing players
  • Collision is off for the same reasons FF is
(n-x) #5

Fair enough, @stayfreshshoe . I cant say, that I am happy with your answers, but thx for taking your time to give them. Really appreciated!

(Chris Mullins) #6

You’re welcome

(K1X455) #7

This is one of the reasons why I asked where to discuss new game mode .

The monotony of the current state of CMM along with Ranked, and browsed matches makes the game stale (which could possibly be one of the reasons why players are falling off the radar).

Compare the statistic of what percentage server time are in vacancy and the statistic of the game mode Execution making only 5% of the player time, it makes more sense to run servers with at least 5% player participation given the current dwindling player population. Hell, even I would rent a server just to run Execution mode (and I could very well bet that a few Asians would swamp that server).

(AlbinMatt) #8

All of you are wrong. The best gamemode is obviously a 8v1 when all of your teammates accidentally disconnects or rage quits.

Honestly, I want 6v6 to be in Ranked. Much more options and the extra space doesn’t hurt with getting more players in.

8v8 & 7v7 sounds nice, but with some tweaking of the maps, a 10v10 or even 12v12 would be so fun. It would probably be a mess without the proper explosion balance, but come on, doesn’t it sound fun?

(bgyoshi) #9

I’ve been saying it since I joined up here in 2016

The popularity of Objective mode is how fast it can be, and how long and tense it can be. When a team gets crushed, the game is only 7 minutes. When teams are having a strong back and forth, the game is more like 10 minutes.

Change Stopwatch to be this. Make it 2 rounds of Objective mode. It functions just like objective mode, and it keeps track of progress just like stopwatch mode. It switches sides after each half like stopwatch. That way, stomps are short and tight matches go longer.

The popularity of 6v6 is that it feels like the perfect balance of team tactics and skill. 5v5 has too few players to allow for effective flanking or interesting merc comps. You’re stuck with healer/(healer/support)/assault/engi/random. 7v7+ is just too many people and turns into spam. Defending in 5v5 just means sticking near the point, the enemy can’t be sneaky or take multiple routes, as splitting your team up is a death sentence. In 6v6 though, defending means splitting into smaller teams to cover all the routes.

The game may have been intended for 5v5 but I’m telling you, 6v6 feels the best.

I would hands down play Ranked if it was 6v6 only, even without Stopwatch changes. But even more so with them.

tl;dr
5v5 is too strict of a format
Stopwatch is slow during stomps and slow during tight matches. It’s just too slow.

6v6 is perfectly between too few and too many players
Objective is fast during stomps and slow during tense matches, exactly as it should be.

So make Stopwatch be 2 rounds of objective, and make all modes 6v6.