The Shotgun/Rifle/Damage/Ammo Problem (Solutions included!)

(steamingIntern) #1

Hello folks, I have played DB for a bit, and now I must bring up some things that caught my eye, and present possible solutions.

Lets start off with the simplest problem, ammo.

I have noticed that players do not start off each life with max ammo, for instance the fragger by default starts off with 50 rounds in reserve. This is obviously to encourage team cooperation by making the mercs rely on the mercs with ammunition supplying abilities. But this presents a problem, oftentimes those with the ammunition supplying abilities do not bother supplying their allies, instead using the ammo for themselves. These players do not seem to care about the incentives in place for supplying ammo, they only wish to supply themselves.

A possible solution:

Have players start off each life with ammo topped off, for instance the default fragger starting off with a nice 138 (iirc) round ammo reserve. (I would say to raise rewards for supplying ammo, but this would still not affect players who are only focused on killing/the objective. Sometimes there are no ammo supplying mercs in the match anyways)

Now for the beefier problems.

The shotgun, rifle, and damage problems:

I have decided to combine these three problems together due to them being so close in nature, so lets get started.
There have been many complaints about shotguns recently, and it is mainly due to them being amazing in most situations in this game. The maps are perfectly sized for shotguns to reign supreme, every map seems like a shotgunner’s dream. The problem does not entirely lie in the shotguns themselves, but mostly in the mercs that wield them and the terrain that they are used in.

Now for the rifle portion of the problem. There have also been complaints over the seemingly poor damage output by rifles, many refute these complaints by stating the importance of headshots, but that logically opens up a hole in that arguement and leads me into the next portion of the problem, damage. From my personal research, rifles do seem to output rather poor damage on a bodyshot, and of course, work wonders with headshots. This opens up a logical problem, why have slightly more realistic damage for only one part of the body? I understand that this game is not meant for total realism, by why give us a halfway taste of it?

A possible solution:

Make loadout cards including the shotguns available to the other mercs, and in turn, making loadout cards containing assault rifles available to the mercs who wield shotguns by default. This will open up the option to perfom in close quarters to the other mercs, yet allowing the lighter mercs to wield the assault rifles, allowing them to play in a slightly different fashion. This would also mean that by selecting the card with the shotgun, or the assault rifle, the player would understand that they were sacrificing a portion of their performance in certain scenarios.
So, make loadout cards available to the other mercs that contain shotguns, and let the lighter mercs use rifles. (I can see why lighter, faster mercs with rifles would be objectionable, they dont entirely need them anyways, since they have smg options, so perhaps alter the solutions to just give shotguns to the other mercs)
Perhaps make larger maps to encourage ranged gunplay.
As for assault rifles, beef up either the bodyshot damage, or the rof, making them a more viable option in combat.
Perhaps give a small buff to rifle AND pistol damage to the body.

Thanks for hearing me out, have a good one! :wink:

(IIParks_NA) #2

I agree with increasing rifle damage as it is to low, idk about giving rifles to faster mercs as they have smg’s. But i also agree with the fact that shotguns are a bit over advantage because of the size of the map. The maps need to be more long range esc or they need to do somthing about how the shotguns work to make AR more viable and balanced.

(KangaJoo) #3

I’m OK with the ammo being low at the beginning of the round. I know we’re mostly playing public games right now, but the focus of DB is the competitive matchmaking. If you play that, people talk a lot more and actually try to work together so it really isn’t a problem and just adds a bit more of an incentive for someone to play as skyhammer.

As for the damage “issues,” the reason why headshots do a lot more damage than body shots is because it helps raise the skill ceiling. If one player has good enough aim to consistently get headshots and their opponent doesn’t, then the more skilled player will always win in a fair fight if there is a large discrepancy between the damage headshots and body shots do. If anything, I’d say the max damage for headshots with ARs and and SMGs is a bit too low. I get that shotguns should out damage a lot of other guns up close, but I don’t think a shotgunner (who already has non damage related advantages like being extremely maneuverable while shooting) getting easy body shots should be able to out damage someone using an SMG or AR and consistently getting headshots.

(irishrOy) #4

I think it would be good like in BF Hardline (as far as I know).
There you can go up to a Support-class, press a button and “request” ammo, and you automatically receive ammo.

This would work like going up to a Skyhammer, for example, pressing “F”, and then you receive 1 ammo-bundle.

What do you think of that?

rifle&shotgun-problem.

I personally have no problem with neither of them.
I tend to use Fragger often, and I find his weapons (M4 and Hk121) perfectly fine. I play Proxy and Aura, I find their shotguns fine.

As already said multiple times:
Yes, maps are simply put: A shotgunner’s wet dream :smiley:
But Rifles are good, too. (Not only semi-auto, but also AssaultRifles, SMGs and LMGs).
Headshots. are. key.
With the M4 or HK121, I can drop other Mercs in 3-5 shots on any range with HeadShots.

(LuLNope) #5

I would suggest to leave Skyhammer as he is right now. If you’re not supporting your team you deserve to lose and drag your team with you. Making ammo packs available to everyone as soon as they get close to Skyhammer would promote lone wolf style of gameplay where he’d be treated as walking ammo crate and DB is supposed to be a teambased shooter, so I’d suggest not to strip it of teambased mechanics.

@steamingIntern
You missed the real reason for headshots dealing significantly more damage. It’s not there for the sake of realism. It’s there simply as a way to reward highly skilled players. Again, lowering TTK by increasing damage on all weapons would make lone wolfs carrying entire team alone more common. Now it requires extraordinary skill (unless you play Fragger, this guy requires a lot of pressing ‘q’ key, not skill). High TTK serves as a limiter of how much one person can really do, which promotes teamplay. Weapons, except shotguns, are in a good spot right now.

Also making shotguns available to other classes solves nothing. Imagine slow Fragger attempting to close distance in order to shotgun you. Without speed to get up close fast shotguns are bad.

My take on fixing shotguns is to increase overall TTK, for example by increasing overall HP and at the same time increase headshot damage while turning HS dmg bonus off for shotguns. This way it’ll be impossible to one shot with shotguns while giving a better chance to good aimers to out aim shotgunners. Other than that I think only complete removal of shotguns would help.

(steamingIntern) #6

This “skill”, is often a player strafing left and right while firing, and headshotting. I have seen on several occasions, heck, in every non-competitive match that I have played, some “skilled” players walking up to one another and doing a sort of dance while shooting. Personally it looks severely retarded, and on a side note:

Increasing the overall damage to the body would make enemys (in large) a far more menacing threat, making careful positioning and planning of a route essential. Sure, guys who are good at getting headshots are skilled indeed, but for the most part this headshot mechanic has lead to tons of “penguin dances” were played dance around hoping to avoid fire whilst aiming for the opponent’s head. An increase in dmg would make it easier for newer players to take people down, on paper, in practice, it would greatly reward those who played more strategically. This would encourage teamplay.

Thanks for the feedback btw! :blush:

(solt.) #7

Language.

Frankly it sounds to me like you’re in the wrong stream of FPS games.

When you examine shooters in totality you can see something a division emerge from one key feature. How quickly you can kill the other guy.
(I believe this is also called TTK or time to kill.)

If you do not enjoy games wherein damage can be sustained (and therefore it is worthwhile for players to also mitigate that damage through evasion) I’d gladly recommend a bunch of excellent FPS which are have a much lower TTK.

(LuLNope) #8

DB doesn’t have to be newbie friendly. Most successful competitive shooters aren’t (CS:GO, Quake, UT). This “severely retarded dance” is actually another way to increase skill ceiling. It makes it harder to aim at you and a bit harder to aim for you, dodging requires quite a bit of skill too - it’s another thing you have to focus on while aiming and paying attention to surroundings. Strafing without falling into predictable rhythm is even harder. Add to that all the possibilities wall jumping gives you and suddenly it becomes an extremely hard to master ability.

Increasing damage would only make it easier for good aimers to gun down opponents before they even have time to react. See COD or Blacklight Retribution. When low TTK is involved it’s easy to get ludicrous scores for players with even tiny bit of skill.

If anything - increasing TTK is a good idea. Giving players more time to react regardless of their skill level. It’d make this game even easier to play (newbie friendly) and even harder to master (better aim would be rewarded more).

(steamingIntern) #9

When you examine shooters in totality you can see something a division emerge from one key feature. How quickly you can kill the other guy.
(I believe this is also called TTK or time to kill.)

If you do not enjoy games wherein damage can be sustained (and therefore it is worthwhile for players to also mitigate that damage through evasion) I’d gladly recommend a bunch of excellent FPS which are have a much lower TTK.
[/quote]

Refer to:

(KangaJoo) #10

[quote=“LuLNope;9993”]Increasing damage would only make it easier for good aimers to gun down opponents before they even have time to react. See COD or Blacklight Retribution. When low TTK is involved it’s easy to get ludicrous scores for players with even tiny bit of skill.

If anything - increasing TTK is a good idea. Giving players more time to react regardless of their skill level. It’d make this game even easier to play (newbie friendly) and even harder to master (better aim would be rewarded more).[/quote]
The problems we have now, though, are that good positioning and map knowledge aren’t rewarded as much as they should be and that it’s basically impossible for a good player to win a 2vs1 against even just two average players.

I like that the TTK for the body is long since it gives good players a chance to use their aim to their advantage, but I think the TTK for headshots should be quicker, or at least quicker relative to the TTK for body shots. That way a good player won’t get owned by a noob just because the noob reacted faster or got the jump on him but a good player will still be able to kill fast enough to take on multiple bad players. I realize many people will say “you shouldn’t be able to win 2vs1 battles since that emphasizes lone wolfing” but this really isn’t true. The only time you could win a 2vs1 would be if you were much more skilled than the other players the other players and in a competitive matchmaking setting this won’t be the case, meaning teamplay, tactics, and strategy will still be the main factors in determining which team will win.

(LuLNope) #11

Yes, and that’s how it’s supposed to be. See my previous posts where I talk about teamplay aspects of the game. Allowing solo player to carry entire team would go against the idea of skill AND teamplay based shooter. Highly skilled players still can contribute to the team much more than newbies, it’s just that they can’t compensate for entire team.

[quote=“ChinaRep;10120”]
I like that the TTK for the body is long since it gives good players a chance to use their aim to their advantage, but I think the TTK for headshots should be quicker, or at least quicker relative to the TTK for body shots. That way a good player won’t get owned by a noob just because the noob reacted faster or got the jump on him but a good player will still be able to kill fast enough to take on multiple bad players. I realize many people will say “you shouldn’t be able to win 2vs1 battles since that emphasizes lone wolfing” but this really isn’t true. The only time you could win a 2vs1 would be if you were much more skilled than the other players the other players and in a competitive matchmaking setting this won’t be the case, meaning teamplay, tactics, and strategy will still be the main factors in determining which team will win. [/quote]

This kind of speculation about winning 2v1 and whatnot is pointless without considering what mercs are used in the fight. Right now, it’s easy to win 2v1 with Fragger for example as long as the other guys don’t use slayer mercs. Also if we’re talking about competitive then decreasing TTK is a terrible, terrible idea. Good players already have no trouble to kill in a single moment, decrease TTK and you’ll have no chances to fight back upon being flanked by a good player. If anything, increase body shot TTK while keeping current headshot TTK.

For some reason people are putting emphasis on positioning in their posts. It’s important but not even early as much as in CS. It will never be rewarded as highly as in more campy games. It gives you a slight edge in DB, but your aim and dodging are still the deciding factors.

(Szakalot) #12

Actually, the main reason its hard to win a 2v1is FF being off.

With FF on you can force one player to be in the crossfire of their teammate.

(steamingIntern) #13

[quote=“Szakalot;10231”]Actually, the main reason its hard to win a 2v1is FF being off.

With FF on you can force one player to be in the crossfire of their teammate. [/quote]

I second this, would not apply in too many situations, but would still have an impact

(Darkcola) #14

[quote=“Szakalot;10231”]Actually, the main reason its hard to win a 2v1is FF being off.

With FF on you can force one player to be in the crossfire of their teammate. [/quote]

Goodness, yes. WHY are there no FF servers. It may prevent TK rage, but still. There should be some servers allowing it. The game is pretty silly with airstrikes without the horrible moment of shock when you realize you are about to wipe out your whole team lol.

Those moments aahhhhh

(appreciativeBuster) #15

agreed!