The Golden Gun

(brbrbr) #21

[QUOTE=Covel42;222784]
Light=precise/lower damage>>>Medium=balanced>>>Heavy=indiscriminate/high damage.[/QUOTE]
actually armaments[and other stuff in loadout]can/must/might be balanced by other, more interesting ways.
but in general, yes, purpose is Exclude “Golden guns” from existence, not create one.
in fact, different gamestyle/purpose/usage/situation Require(!!!) dramatically different armament, sometimes.

(Covel42) #22

My thoughts, in sentence form. thanks :slight_smile:

(Covel42) #23

[QUOTE=Bezzy;222824]The reason that there is always a “golden gun” in games is because the only way to perfectly balance weapons is to make them exactly the same. Technically, any assymetry is imbalance, but that same imbalance also creates a more interesting mind game/yomi layers:

As soon as difference comes in, it’s circumstance which decides what the best weapon is. And once circumstance comes in, then the mind-games start - “He’s inside, so he’s probably opting for the SMG, so rather than dive in there with my long rifle, I’m going to flush him out with a grenade and take him at range”.

If all weapons are the same, all equally balanced, then there’s no reason to use one over another. If some are better in different situations than others, then you start to get interesting benefits/penalties for HOW you use a weapon, and not just WHAT weapon you use.[/QUOTE]

Still cant get over developers actually addressing worries. Thanks for the reply.

With your ‘some are better in different situations’ point, in most games ive played you get weapons that, lets take range as an example, straddle most of close, all of medium and all but extreme of long range and become the go to gun.

In your experience/insight, how can this be avoided whilst not having gaps in effectiveness that lead to sloppy gunfights?

(signofzeta) #24

[quote=Covel42;222826]The way i define a golden gun is that when using it, two players of equal skill when they face off, the one with the golden gun will always win if the situation doesnt favour either play or even favours the non-golden gun player.

put it simply, weapon choice (not picking an appropriate weapon, just picking the best) beating skill/tactical advantage.[/quote]

I guess rocket launchers in ETQW and Panzerfausts/shrecks in the Wolfenstein games are sort of like golden guns, but you are slow, and it takes a long time to fire. I also wasn’t really good at using those weapons except against stationary targets.

Then there is the Venom, Flamethrower and GPMG, which skilled people do have a chance of avoiding being killed by those weapons.

The real golden gun I’d say is the hyperblaster, but the problem is, only strogg and aggressors can use it.

(INF3RN0) #25

[QUOTE=signofzeta;223227]I guess rocket launchers in ETQW and Panzerfausts/shrecks in the Wolfenstein games are sort of like golden guns, but you are slow, and it takes a long time to fire. I also wasn’t really good at using those weapons except against stationary targets.

Then there is the Venom, Flamethrower and GPMG, which skilled people do have a chance of avoiding being killed by those weapons.

The real golden gun I’d say is the hyperblaster, but the problem is, only strogg and aggressors can use it.[/QUOTE]

If the rockets could fire at really high rates… maybe. Pub hyper is probably the closest to the golden gun, but that is just because it offers too much power without some kind of compensation in difficulty of use. Other games are much worse though.

(MILFandCookies) #26

I like how you make the distinction b/w pub hyper and pro mod hyper. :slight_smile:
And while I agree that its pretty close to a golden gun, since beta, ive only seen 2 guys who were actually decent with it.

As far as other games - shock rifle in UT99 is pretty close.

(signofzeta) #27

[quote=MILFandCookies;223320]I like how you make the distinction b/w pub hyper and pro mod hyper. :slight_smile:
And while I agree that its pretty close to a golden gun, since beta, ive only seen 2 guys who were actually decent with it.

As far as other games - shock rifle in UT99 is pretty close.[/quote]

lol quake 2 railgun.

I almost forgot, Doom 3 rocket launcher counts as a golden gun.

Although the BFG10K is highly powerful, I highly doubt that any quake 3 player is trying to get it as their top priority. They usually go for the red armor or the megahealth.

(INF3RN0) #28

[QUOTE=MILFandCookies;223320]I like how you make the distinction b/w pub hyper and pro mod hyper. :slight_smile:
And while I agree that its pretty close to a golden gun, since beta, ive only seen 2 guys who were actually decent with it.[/QUOTE]

Pub hyper whores always hate promod :wink:. It could have been a lot worse though.

(murka) #29

I’m sure we can all agree that sniper is the golden gun in etqw, but it does need more skill than usual(read:steeper and longer learning curve)

(Slade05) #30

In DooM 3, it was more a question of RL/Chaingun combo, really. Chaingun had insane accuracy and DPS(and 2x damage to the head, holy ****), and RL was quake-fast and gave you all advantages of rocketjumping.

Same goes for first quake, I guess. Take RL, take LG and you`re an unstoppable death machine, if you control RA at least.

(Covel42) #31

This would not make it a golden gun. The fact that you have to learn to destroy with it makes it just a gfreat wepon in skilled hands.

If someone of low skill was beating others of high skill, using any or all weapons, then it becomes ‘golden’.

(Slade05) #32

Well, organizing triangles with BFG in DooM/DooM 2 certainly demanded timing and cool head, therefore it`s not a golden gun.
:slight_smile:

(signofzeta) #33

[quote=Slade05;223417]Well, organizing triangles with BFG in DooM/DooM 2 certainly demanded timing and cool head, therefore it`s not a golden gun.
^_^[/quote]

not unless you have a noob vs a noob. Usually in that case, the BFG is a golden gun.

(Paul) #34

[QUOTE=Bezzy;222824]The reason that there is always a “golden gun” in games is because the only way to perfectly balance weapons is to make them exactly the same. Technically, any assymetry is imbalance, but that same imbalance also creates a more interesting mind game/yomi layers:

As soon as difference comes in, it’s circumstance which decides what the best weapon is. And once circumstance comes in, then the mind-games start - “He’s inside, so he’s probably opting for the SMG, so rather than dive in there with my long rifle, I’m going to flush him out with a grenade and take him at range”.

If all weapons are the same, all equally balanced, then there’s no reason to use one over another. If some are better in different situations than others, then you start to get interesting benefits/penalties for HOW you use a weapon, and not just WHAT weapon you use.[/QUOTE]

Since nobody came back on this, I do now.
A few months ago I went on a workshop ‘game developing’ and they explained all the basics, and how things stick together, why this, why that.

What this describes, is latterly what I learned. You never should have this golden gun, but as Bezzy says weapons for situations. It’s all like the rock paper scissors game, rock beats scissors, scissors beat paper and paper beats rock…

(tokamak) #35

Even rock paper scissors is not the way you want to go. The rock, paper and scissors should all be conditional, rock will only beet scissors if rock is used in the correct way depending on the situation. It’s only then when the skills of the players really start to pay off.

(GlobalWar) #36

Multiple Stingers with good timing will destroy an AC130 :slight_smile:

The M60 with red dot or 4x scope in BFBC2 is without any doubt a Golden Gun.

(signofzeta) #37

it should be rock paper scissors given certain situations. If the situation changes, then rock beats paper, like I dunno, a falling rock beats paper suspended and laid out in a horizontal position. And we all know that a rock can’t smash a scissors.

(Lequis) #38

One problem with balancing is how you balance a weapon. Do you balance it via public game statistics or based on professional player statistics? If you balance guns based on the first, weapons can still be OP when in the right hands. If you balance based on professional stats, some guns may seem completely worthless to average players. I prefer balancing based on professional player statistics, but that is just me. Even then, you have to balance weapons, etc per map and gametype, so on some maps, certain guns will be the best option (ie SMG or shotgun close range, sniper long range), or non-LMG/HMG for capture the flag (unless you are defending).

(Nail) #39

where do you get these ideas about game dynamics, must be some crappy games you play

no one changes gun damage per map, and there is no CTF

(H0RSE) #40

no one changes gun damage per map, and there is no CTF

when he said “per map,” I think he meant like placement and situation (like not putting/using rockets in a confined map) but this is still pointless, considering Brink doesn’t have weapon placement, and you choose your own loadouts.