The formula has already been written.


(Valdez) #1

I know a lot of people are going to think I am just asking for Rtcw remade here, but lets be honest, DB has a lot of elements from Rtcw, just not the perfect mix.

Why is it that people think Rtcw 2 would not be successful? I am not saying it would have to be Rtcw remade, but it would need everything that made Rtcw the game that it is.

The game would not need the same maps as Rtcw, but maps that are equally as good. (doc run maps preferably, because these maps added epic last second thrills). If you look at Rtcw maps they are simple as can be. Defense spawns in one location the entire match, offense either spawns in one location or grabs a forward spawn point. The key point here is that they were balanced (felt fair at all points), there were defined spots to setup your defense and there are obvious choke points. (we can add better gfx and better netcode also).

I understand gaming is not necessarily a sport, but why can’t it be as simple as a sport like basketball, football, baseball or even hockey?? Basketball is still played 5v5… point guard, shooting guard, small forward, power forward and center. The hoops are still 10 ft in height last time I checked, and the ball is still round.

To me fps gaming is about firing a weapon, cut out all the other unnecessary stuff and let’s keep this simple. The focus needs to be on gun battles. In Rtcw, there was almost too much spam… Airstrikes, arty strikes and panzerfausts. The good thing was at least you had a warning of incoming airstrikes and incoming artys. Basically they were used as a means to direct players into a building, staircases or just out of their defensive positions, this allowed the panzer to welcome them aboard when they were all grouped up. I was not a huge fan of the panzerfaust, but I respected it due to it adding a great strategic element. Due to the panzer you were not allowed to all group up and run as a 6 man team, you had to have strategic 3/3, 2/2/2 or even 4/2 splits, these split attacks were all timed based on the enemies spawn and also your own spawn time, so whenever the most advantageous time to attack is when you would want to attack. Panzerfaust, also added a weapon where the newbies could kill a great player (very important), however after firing his shot he would be lucky to do anything else but die. In the hands of a great player he could potentially kill 3-4 guys that were grouped up, then he would still have his pistol to fend people off. The panzer also had a spin up or charge up time before being able to fire (probably 1-2s), this gave a skilled player a chance to kill him before even getting his shot off. One more point about the panzer, it added a **** ton of excitement to the game, everyone wanted to see multi kill panzer shots.

If you ask me there are fps gamers who play for the single player story (Bioshock Infinite), there are also fps gamers who play to dominate the opposition, I believe you will not have fun if you are getting your teeth kicked in. Just like if you are playing basketball vs way better players / teams and getting trounced by 40 pts. This is where different leagues for different skill levels come in, peons want to play vs peons or great players want to play vs other great players. Just like in basketball, there are church leagues and then there is the NBA. So I suggest putting a ranking system like this in game, that way everyone will be happy playing vs similar opposition. The ranking system could be similar to Elo rating for League of Legends and Starcraft 2, not like the most basic leveling systems found in CoD/Battlefield franchise games. (I believe you already plan on doing this).

There is also this whole f2p thing, I am well aware that you guys need to make money here :). I will leave this part up to you guys, this post is just about making a kickass game. Maybe after getting the initial game intact, then you start introducing additional classes/weapons/skins/ etc… Hey who knows, f2p may not have been the best way to go. I have no idea.

I understand SD probably hates being tied to their past games, but they must understand this is why they are even a company. You can also thank Rtcw, even though you guys did not make that game… most people think that you did :). You may want to make your own game that has no relevance to these past glorious games, and you are right you may make a damn good and successful game. But then again look at Id software, they made pc fps multiplayer games. They also wanted to divert from their old ways, this is why they made Rage a single player console game (didn’t work to well for them).

So again I am going to ask… Why would Rtcw 2 not be successful?? Why do we need to reinvent the wheel here? YOU ALREADY HAVE A FORMULA THAT WORKS. Look at CS GO, this is the same game that was made 12 years ago just with better gfx. Now some people may say well 1.6 has more ppl playing than cs go or source, but then again there are way more computers that can run cs 1.6 than computers that can run cs go.

Btw I am well aware due to legal issues you guys would not even be allowed to make Rtcw 2, to be perfectly honest this is not what I am asking for, I am asking for you to make a game that has the same formula that made Rtcw what it is. Maybe you could even take the best elements from all of your past titles, but then again… you would just be using everything from Rtcw :slight_smile: sorry Rex.

Oh by the way, Rtcw was a success for public play and competitive play.


(RasteRayzeR) #2

Does this has anything to do with DB ? I feel like you posted this in the wrong section of the forum.

We already had a very long thread about how DB should be done, and it was decided that it should not be a copy of W:ET or ET:QW, but a new game inspired by what made the others so great.


(nailzor) #3

+1 to everything here, and ET:QW/W:ET were not referenced at all Raste.

Took a bit to read but I like it.


(iwound) #4

SD made ET,QW,Brink. What did you expect.
ive never known anyone who thought SD made RTCW.
rtcw mp was not successful. even if you pull a figure out from one particular day. compared to other games it was not.
rtcw was boring for me. et gave it depth and playability. also people who played rtcw seemed to have something stuck up their arse. meaning no fun. no sense of humour.
if you want a gun firing game that feels good play counterstrike. i played it years ago got bored, played et for years got bored, played qw for years got bored.
DB is new, its different, its fresh. and it continues the type of play that SD creates.
that is not going to change so you either need to say not for you or go with the flow and enjoy the game for what it is.
something that offers a different expedience every time you play it. games like rtcw and cs are just so repetitive as they lack that depth in game play that SD games offer.
one thing your missing from SD games is humour. try having some fun for a change and not so competitive you might actually enjoy it.


(Kendle) #5

Had to restore a PC yesterday, last known good configuration, which made me think, IMO RTCW is the last known good configuration, but different people have different opinions about what was good, however the one thing we can’t disagree on is that RTCW was the first known good configuration.

If I was building a new objective shooter I’d start with RTCW and build from there, whereas I think DB has started with Brink or ET:QW, gone backwards a bit in the first few patches, and is now moving in the opposite direction once again adding “stuff” that generally is contrary to a competitive team shooter.

However, is that so wrong? SD need to make money from this game. They’re not going to make money from a game which has 4 classes 3 of which have the same gun. The game needs “stuff”, because you can’t sell empty air, or an idea, you sell “stuff”. Several classes + several load-outs per class is a decent enough business model, although I like Strychzilla’s idea of mirco-transactions, instead of selling a complete load-out for $10 (for example), sell an item for $2 (for example) and let people build their own load-outs.

However, to sell anyone anything you need things to sell. That means lots of guns. That means lots of different guns. That means some that are higher damage than others. That means some that are higher / lower ROF, higher / lower spread. That means no one definition of a “skilled” weapon. That means almost certainly no direct combat equivalency between all classes.

This is the nature of the beast, and any of us wishing for a simple one gun game with players distinguished only by their ability to use that one gun should walk away now, thanking SD for the opportunity to be here in the first place.

.
.
.

If you’re still here, let’s move on to some other key principles.

Fundamentally I want classes to need each other, I want someone on the team to be the source of whatever resources the team needs. This was a cornerstone of RTCW gameplay once you get past the weapon handling.

If there must be ammo racks, for example, let them be built by someone before they can be used, not pre-existing. Perhaps have a F/Ops that can dispense ammo packs and another load-out that can build an ammo rack, but not both. Maybe a Medic that can build a health station but not hand out packs. Maybe a Medic that can drop an “area of effect” health pack that heals several team-mates at once (in the near vicinity) but takes up all their charge etc.

I believe it’s possible to balance all this stuff, but I don’t believe this principle has yet been established. I haven’t walked away because of the weapon mechanics, but ultimately I believe I will walk away if this issue is not addressed, and quite frankly it appears that not only is it not being addressed but it’s going to get worse if the lastest MS17 video is anything to go by.

For me this is the deal breaker. I want to know if class inter-dependency is an area of concern for the Devs, do they have any plans to address this, or do they genuinely think it’s OK to have a F/Ops class and a deployable unlimited ammo station. This is the question I need answered before I decide what to do, because I really am --> <-- this close to walking away right now.


(bighogins) #6

[QUOTE=iwound;437482]SD made ET,QW,Brink. What did you expect.
ive never known anyone who thought SD made RTCW.
rtcw mp was not successful. even if you pull a figure out from one particular day. compared to other games it was not.
rtcw was boring for me. et gave it depth and playability. also people who played rtcw seemed to have something stuck up their arse. meaning no fun. no sense of humour.
if you want a gun firing game that feels good play counterstrike. i played it years ago got bored, played et for years got bored, played qw for years got bored.
DB is new, its different, its fresh. and it continues the type of play that SD creates.
that is not going to change so you either need to say not for you or go with the flow and enjoy the game for what it is.
something that offers a different expedience every time you play it. games like rtcw and cs are just so repetitive as they lack that depth in game play that SD games offer.
one thing your missing from SD games is humour. try having some fun for a change and not so competitive you might actually enjoy it.[/QUOTE]

Pretty sure Rtcw for its time was the second most played MP game, behind CS. Possibly the only reason Rtcw did not overtake CS was due to the CPL choosing CS over Rtcw. The choice of CS for CPL was directly related to a conflict with angel munoz and id software. So not exactly sure what you think makes a game a MP success but 2 years of quakecon and had 3 scheduled tournaments for CPL = success in my mind. Oh yes not to mention Rtcw spawned some games you may have heard of. Rtcw ET, ET QW, Brink, DB.

The reason we do not play CS is due to us liking fast paced shooters that involve movement as well as aim skills.

Also it is hard to have fun in a game when nobody is ever on to play vs. Maybe a sign that SD are not going in the right direction???

Rtcw would be boring for me also if I was getting trounced by 40 in every game I played.

This is for you Iwound, read the well regarded IGNs quote about Rtcw MP. http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/return-to-castle-wolfenstein/critic-reviews actually you know what, let me post that quote for you "The single player game almost takes a back seat to the real strength of the title which is the multiplayer aspect developed by Nerve. It tastes a lot like crack. Very addictive. "


(INF3RN0) #7

ET and ETQW were both pretty good games by my standard. RTCW was good too. Even then players from each of those games despise the other simply because it wasn’t an exact copy. DB might have elements of all of them, but it’s not gonna feel the same at all. All RTCW people can +1 each other, same for ET and ETQW. Either way the most we will get is a chance to make the new ideas they come up with work as well as the stuff in the other games. They obviously don’t want this to be a simple shooter or just a simple comp game in the same way that the early games were. In the end we might not like it as much, but as long as it’s a solid game that works in its own way that’s the best you can hope for. Frankly I would get bored playing a reskinned game. Let’s take the road that SC2 did.


(Anti) #8

This is the biggest design challenge we face on the game, trying to keep the ‘classic’ shooter feel we want with understandable simple gameplay whilst making it work as a F2P game that isn’t P2W. It’s incredibly tough, especially as we have lots of information telling us what types of transactions and systems will and will not have a good chance of making any money.

Suggestions from you folks on this front are always welcome as we need to be very inventive in how we try to deal with it :slight_smile:


(INF3RN0) #9

Are you referring to comp or overall player base?


(bighogins) #10

I was referring to overall, I might be mistaken on that. As far as comp player base I would imagine Rtcw had to of been near the top with teams actively participating in Cal, tournaments and such.


(Kendle) #11

I think these are 2 excellent posts :-

http://forums.warchest.com/showthread.php/35214-DIRTY-BOMB-UPDATE-Version-17437?p=436367&viewfull=1#post436367
http://forums.warchest.com/showthread.php/35371-MS17-Gameplay?p=437463&viewfull=1#post437463

Strych is obviously a passionate guy, with a colourful turn of phrase, but not all oldskool RTCW players are simply saying make it like RTCW because they can’t think of anything more original.


(bighogins) #12

sorry dbl post.


(ailmanki) #13

I definitely not playing any game, which wants me to buy guns and loadouts.

Minecraft is very succesfull, all it does is make a good game which is being extended and updated. No extras you can buy for MP. It has its own problems though.

RTCW and ET make no money? Both games have many services around it. I would pay for anticheat. Overall I would pay for better services. And I do pay for hosting services - where I would invest even more if there would be anything to invest into. Like statistics, live-feed to youtube, backups, new exclusive premium maps, stuff which adds content to the game. But not selfish content for a single indivduum. At best it would have a mechanic, to allow a hole Clan/comunity to a buy a certain upgrade for their servers.

As Valdez pointed out, its a sport. I have never heard of the idea adding new devices into any sport. Oh wait, Tennis - tons of different Rackets to buy. But the ball is always the same for both players. And the Rackets are well defined. And still those sports make millions of dollars.
Definietely the wrong way F2P. Those games will die as soon something real comes out.


(RasteRayzeR) #14

Anti-cheats : have to be on the basic product, not an option to buy.
Hosting-services : look at Quake live, they lose money …

And watch games like Tribes Ascend, PlanetSide 2 or Blacklight : you pay for guns and loadouts, but you can do it with xp or money. They have a lot of players and are very profitable.


(Evil-Doer) #15

I’m only quoting this because the thread is about a formula, which I would hope SD has a handle on some sort of system they are following or formula. I personally have took a crack at all three titles. I enjoyed all three and at the end of the day I can say I enjoyed ET the most even getting to be involved in a Quakecon with that as well. This is total opinion from me. (This also doesn’t mean I’m not being objective to current challenges an ideas, I’m very open minded an willing to try anything). The thing is the numbers don’t lie in the quote. The further we get from keeping things simple stupid the worse it gets.

I’m the type of person for the long haul an longevity…is SD? Or we just trying to make a quick surge of income an start something new?


(RasteRayzeR) #16

Formulas make the same games all the time … no room for innovations or new stuff


(ailmanki) #17

[QUOTE=RasteRayzeR;437495]Anti-cheats : have to be on the basic product, not an option to buy.
Hosting-services : look at Quake live, they lose money …

And watch games like Tribes Ascend, PlanetSide 2 or Blacklight : you pay for guns and loadouts, but you can do it with xp or money. They have a lot of players and are very profitable.[/QUOTE]

Anti-cheat, how should SD provice a reliable Anti-Cheat? Money for that service coming from selling extra content? Let 3party like Evenbalance do that?
Cheating is a serious problem, I had a happily pay for a good service.

Just because Quake Live is not a success, it does mean there is no money in it. Either Quake Live is not good enough, or the hole idea is wrong.
AFAIK QL is not good enough, since Q3 has in the meantime better netcode. Not sure though if that is still valid.
Also their hosting service must be a joke, or can I in the meantime - host a server on Quake Live for my community? Having the name I want and so on for it?

Just google for game hosting companies, there is like a never ending flood. That should make you think twice, why do you want a another company host your game? … there is the money!


(bighogins) #18

And the most popular PC fps game is… OH yes the same game that was made 12 years ago Counter-Strike…


(RasteRayzeR) #19

Then for the anticheat it should be the same for everyone, thus no way of monetizing it. Otherwise having this becomes a cheat itself !
For hosting, it has to remain within SD control imo, and I agree with ailmanki on that.


(warbie) #20

Agreed. It’s the class balance and teamplay from RTCW that I want in DB, not a straight remake. This isn’t about nostalgia either - it just did it better than the subsequent games that borrowed it’s template. I’d also argue that RTCW’s simplicity gave it the least barrier to entry out of the whole bunch, including DB - which is a more confusing and scary place to jump into than RTCW ever was.