The Engineer Buffet! Serving hot flapjacks daily.


(ImageOmega) #1

Currently, in the alpha, we are seeing a small pool of alternate class loadouts at once. This often makes me wonder just how many class loadouts is Splash Damage intending? I am sure this could be something that is ever expanding as a stream of revenue for this free to play game. The small pool we are seeing though limits players in a game from spreading out. Plus when new flavors of the month get introduced we are all enticed to try it; especially if the new flavor has damaging capabilities that rival every other class like the current engineer.

So, again, feathers get ruffled because we are seeing the new flavor being abused in servers. However, at this stage of the game, I think it is right that feathers are ruffled because the current engineer is a showstopper. Let’s analyze.

First, for those of you wanting a gun that allows you to sneak up on three people and blow them all away before they turn around, you got it. The engineer’s shotgun can one shot kill. Playing the engineer allowed me to run behind enemy lines and flank the opposition whose attention was solely squared in on the objective. Maybe this is intended, but it got to the point where I could rack up kills (and deaths), shutting down enemy waves. Not to mention dropping mines for when they returned.

One jarring issue with the shotgun (besides its damage) is a bug that prevents you from firing when on command. I thought it was tied to clicking too fast, but apparently it has to do with when you are sprinting. So, for someone like me who uses toggle sprint, I had to take that off in order to walk and fire the shotgun. The mechanic is designed so that you can’t hold down LMB to fire the shotgun and that is fine. However, not being able to fire immediately due to sprinting kind of “jamming” gun the up is definitely something that needs to be fixed asap.

What do I propose for the shotgun? Well, increasing the shotgun spread and slightly lowering the rate of fire. The spread seems fairly consistent even at medium to long ranges. At point blank range I think you should absolutely be able to one shot kill (or at least pretty close to it) with the shotgun. However, at a short distance it should take at least two to three shots to kill. This is especially important since the engineer’s secondary is a machine gun pistol.

The engineer’s mines are a source of contempt for many. Probably mostly due to the fact that there are so many engineers trying out the new hotness that there are so many extra mines littering the battlefield. Honestly, I think the mines are almost quite where they should be. I like the short (automatic) arming time and I think the damage is just about right.

I read someone posting there should be more of a delay with the land mines so that you don’t always get killed by them. I think that defeats the purpose of the mine. It is, by design, suppose to kill via the element of surprise. Is it annoying to die to? Absolutely. Would I rather the game didn’t have any mines at all? Yup.

Right now, there is almost a slight delay with the mines where I have spotted one late and jumped away and lived. Could there be an extra two tenths of a second delay added? Maybe. I think the real problem comes with spotting them and my next point.

What can we do to reduce the mine clutter? Well, for one the engineer should only be able to drop one mine per life. I think Anti said that is actually what is intended, but instead we get a recharging ability where you can drop up to two when the meter fills up. Second, the mine should be tied to the life of the engineer. Meaning, if the engy dies then the mine deactivates. This could be tied to a slight delay of 5 seconds where the mine will stay active up to five seconds after the engineer dies. Finally, I am not sure what the “hitpoints” of the mine is right now, but one or two shots should be able to destroy a mine regardless of range or actual damage done to it.

What about enemy detection of mines? There could be that the beeps you hear get audibly louder (or faster) as you get closer to the mine. I think a great example is detecting where C4 is planted in CS. The beeps help you locate the C4 as well as the glowing, pulsing, red light. Also, the mine model itself should be larger. This would help with enemy detection, especially since right now the game’s color palette seems very gray and muddled. And, if an enemy places a mine at the top of a set of stairs a larger model would let you shoot it from below the stairs (if the mine peeks out over the first step) or at least be able to reach the top and shoot it from a safe distance. Obviously, these are subtle changes just to help balance the usage of mines so that they are placed a bit more strategically instead of the willy nilly mine lacing attitude we currently have.

For what its worth, I think the idea of manually arming mines is just another mechanic that would slow down the gameplay. Pulling out the pliers to arm a mine you dropped is just bothersome. If there was a compromise it would be a slight “arming” time percentage bar that pops up when you go to drop the mine. And, this could be done in the players hand so he could run with the mine primed. This is a direct plea to Splash Damage. Please refrain from introducing mechanics that will stop a player or cause a player to slow down his gameplay. In fact, please feel free to introduce mechanics that will speed up gameplay! Like increasing the base speed of movement (ie: backwards, strafing, and forward – when not sprinting). Also, increase the jump height of the character instead of just altering map objects to the player. Let the player be able to jump and be free. Players are peacocks, damn it! You gotta let them fly!

Back to the engineer. Overall, I don’t think the new engineer is a terrible loadout. It just has some very, very significant flaws. Some of these flaws are however gamebreaking since it gives a player the feeling that they need to abuse them to win (since the other team will). Let’s take the BFG in Quake 3. Most game maps or game modes get rid of the BFG since it is quite overpowered. Also, players killed by the BFG feel cheated due to dying to a cheesy weapon. If Rocket Arena had the BFG as part of its standard gamemode then every round would start off with players spamming the BFG. Players would feel compelled to use the BFG to win because it is an almost certainty the opposition will be doing the same. At this point we either have two options, ban the BFG or tweak it to make it fun for everyone on the team.

TL;DR: Ask LeeStyle for the summary.


(Maca) #2

I understand that in the current slowness of the game, having manual arming would seem like only adding to the problem. But if we would imagine that all those things were changed in the future, that the game wouldn’t have all those clunky things, then manual arming of engy items would be the only thing that requires a player to stop, and it would perfectly fit the purpose of defensive items.
But yes, currently any further slowdowns should be avoided, so in order to make the engy items more defensive but still keep the movement unhindered, engy items should be “pre-armed” on the hand. Meaning that an engy can drop his mine while he is running, but prior to that he had to be couple seconds without his gun out.
Or then just go with what you said, and have them disappear after death, but that would partly destroy their usefulness.


(nailzor) #3

Just guessing from what is in the installation directory but I think it will be:

[ul]
[li]3 Covert Ops
[/li][li]2 Engineers
[/li][li]3 Field Ops
[/li][li]3 Medics
[/li][li]5 Soldiers
[/li][/ul]

I have not been around long enough to see as many classes as the veterans around here but those are the directories in the Characters area with cooked upk files.


(acQu) #4

As for mines and auto-arming. I know that it is slowing down the game play, but it is a different kind of slowdowns. For me it is an enjoyable slowdown, especially if i remember how engineers in W:ET had to arm the mines. I always loved the animation of him boiling down to the mine (damnit that sounds weird :confused:) which looked incredibly funny. It also almost entirely was used by the pubs, not by the comps. But that might have other reasons. Just saying that there are enjoyable mechanics which require you to hold on for a moment and that there are annoying slowdowns. Especially the more natural movement slow-downs are what i would classify as annoying for me personally, but arming a mine would belong to ‘quite enjoyable’ (depends of course on the concrete implementation and if stuff feels right within the context). Probably comps do not want to bother with this, so they want to just lovelessly throw it ‘somewhere’ so that stuff kills. Btw. not speaking for all pubs, just what i think about this.


(Valdez) #5

Yeah to be honest, anything to reduce the effectiveness of mines I am all for. I do agree most things related to slowing the game down needs to be fixed. When it comes to mines, I would like to see arming of mines, also mines should disappear upon death. How to best handle the mines would be just to remove them from the game altogether. If they are left in the game (which im sure they will) I could definitely see certain loadouts being banned in competitive play.


(Bananas) #6

[QUOTE=Valdez;432762]Yeah to be honest, anything to reduce the effectiveness of mines I am all for. I do agree most things related to slowing the game down needs to be fixed. When it comes to mines, I would like to see arming of mines, also mines should disappear upon death. How to best handle the mines would be just to remove them from the game altogether. If they are left in the game (which im sure they will) I could definitely see certain loadouts being banned in competitive play.[/QUOTE]Mines disappearing on death would be too harsh. It removes the defensive aspects of the engineer.

You say to remove mines, but don’t give any suggestions as to what the engineer should get instead. Try to come up with an idea if you really want them removed.


(admzz) #7

Mines are kind of silly, im sure plenty of people on these forums remember trying to push in the main doors on goldrush while constantly having to run over landmines a hundred times to get to the tank… They dont take any skill and if they are left in the game there needs to be a small amount of landmines that can be set per TEAM not per player.


(Apples) #8

One mine per engi and up to 3-4 mines per team should be a thing to reduce their spamminess I think, daage I feel fine after the hotfix, shotgun also is fine after the fix IMO, its still a beast at close range but thats what it’s been made for, if your opponent cant see you sneaking and if with great positionning you can go unnoticed and backrape them, I dont see why they should survive…

There is a difference between “who see first at a corner kill first” and “I can survive even if a player catch me totally per surprise and in my back”.

I enjoyed much more the games tonight, maybe because team were balanced and not uber pro, but felt the game smoother, no warp, aiming felt right most of the time.


(Valdez) #9

[QUOTE=Bananas;432769]Mines disappearing on death would be too harsh. It removes the defensive aspects of the engineer.

You say to remove mines, but don’t give any suggestions as to what the engineer should get instead. Try to come up with an idea if you really want them removed.[/QUOTE]

Trip mines would be better than mines. Only allow them to be set at knee cap level and above, obviously could be only set in rooms, not in the middle of an open map. have a red trip laser to set them off. But again, the game is better without this kind of stuff.


showing off my paint skills


(Hundopercent) #10

[QUOTE=Valdez;432784]Trip mines would be better than mines. Only allow them to be set at knee cap level and above, obviously could be only set in rooms, not in the middle of an open map. have a red trip laser to set them off. But again, the game is better without this kind of stuff.


showing off my paint skills[/QUOTE]

According to that paint picture we need to keep working on your tracking skills, Valdez. :slight_smile:

I’m not a fan of mines in any game. It’s a lame tactic to for free kills. Since we know they will be in the final product the best we could advise is to just limit them and let them have a nice 3+ second arm time.

I’m not sure if I’m on board with them blowing up on death because Engi’s die a lot trying to complete objectives. Either way I don’t care the less I see the better for me.


(INF3RN0) #11

[QUOTE=strychzilla;432795]According to that paint picture we need to keep working on your tracking skills, Valdez. :slight_smile:

I’m not a fan of mines in any game. It’s a lame tactic to for free kills. [/QUOTE]

Grenades, self-heal, rocket launchers, grenade launchers, turrets, shotguns, flame throwers, etc, etc. All usually lame devices, however it’s usually because they aren’t well designed. For example the smaller blast radius grenades in DB require some good throwing and timing to get kills, where in we are usually used to seeing them get a kill no matter where or when you toss them. I hope the same can be applied across the board of the usual lame killing tactics.


(ImageOmega) #12

You know, the idea of thinking of stuff for the engineer was immediately intriguing to me. I definitely would like to see a rocket launcher (1 shot) and/or grenade launcher (extremely limited, un-replenishable ammo - maybe 3 shots max). I would be fine if all engineers deployed a turret of some kind and that’s it, but I don’t think that’s the variety that Splash Damage is going for.

So, since we’re catering to quite the diverse target audience, what about a little mini drone that follows and fires with you? Give it limited health and a timelimit (battery/fuel capacity). It essentially is your own little pet that follows you and fires at the enemy with you. The problem would be animating it going into rooms or under low ceilings.

Maybe I should keep my mouth shut about these silly additions! =]


(INF3RN0) #13

Best thing that can be done for new content ideas is to not necessarily make them function realistically. One of the big problems I see in certain weapon types is that they function to a point that doesn’t make a lot of sense in terms of their balance, but more so in meeting the realistic expectations. If we looked at the damage/function models of every item we do accept and then conform it into the concept of one of these other weapon types, then we end up with something both functional and well balanced. I’d really like to see a skill curve applied to all the usual “lame weapons and killing devices”. In ETQW for example, the art of placing mines became a fairly necessary skill to have because they were easily spottable and you could counter them with a quick run and hop. What I really liked about the ETQW means of countering mines was that you could blow them up when you saw them (only with a grenade) or you could run past them with your knife out making you more exposed to whatever was beyond the mine. I don’t see any reason for the mine in DB to function purely as an instant death bomb, but maybe serve a different purpose for the team or engineer themselves. Turrets can’t really 1v1 a player, but in combination with a player they can turn the tide- why not something similar for a mine?


(ImageOmega) #14

That’s why I thought increasing the model size of the mines would help with people spotting them easier. And, there wouldn’t be that issue we had the other night with a mine placed at the top of an escalator being hard to hit without taking damage.

Also, synergy between the engineer and his toys is definitely a good thing. Which is why the drone idea came to my mind.


(Hundopercent) #15

This is true, but everyone one of the examples you provided requires the player to be nearby and to aim correctly. With Mines, it’s drop it in a random area where some ernie might walk by and boom it’s a kill. That’s the difference.


(Bananas) #16

[QUOTE=ImageOmega;432809]So, since we’re catering to quite the diverse target audience, what about a little mini drone that follows and fires with you? Give it limited health and a timelimit (battery/fuel capacity). It essentially is your own little pet that follows you and fires at the enemy with you. The problem would be animating it going into rooms or under low ceilings.

Maybe I should keep my mouth shut about these silly additions! =][/QUOTE]Brainstorming is good :slight_smile:

Also, give the “pet” skins and make endless money.


(warbie) #17

Can’t we just have the mines from before the recent patch back?