The "BETA" trend and how 1.0 Really Will make a Difference


(Xenithos) #1

In a separate thread several points were made and many things talked about that I feel are very important not only to address, but explore in a correct thread for it. This thread hopes to bring forth some light on why I absolutely agree with Splash Damage’s claim that 1.0 and more players will fix a majority of Dirty Bomb’s problems before they continue onwards.

Some background…:

! I call this the “Beta” trend for a reason (I’ll define “beta trend shortly”) because in the past I used to play a game called MWO. That stands for Mechwarrior Online, for me the game was incredibly easy because I could put my shots exactly where I wanted them, eventually grew bored with certain mechanics and tactics and finally left when I found DB which was exactly what I wanted for a shooter. High paced, action filled combat, cool community, emphasis on aim and skill, even the abilities had high skill impacts, such as heartbeat sensor placement, direct hit bonuses from landing a nader shot or sticking someone with Fletcher, etc. All of this in a team based non TDM mode game that had wall jumping, it was AWESOME when I found it.
!
! But let’s get back to MWO, what was MWO going through and why am I bothering to talk about it? See, MechWarrior online had a gamemode they were pushing for called community warfare or [“Faction Warfare”](https://mwomercs.com/game/faction-play ““Faction Warfare””). Essentially: It was the exact same thing as ranked mode in Dirty Bomb, but on a {cough} universal scale. The entire premise is that their ranked competitive mode was a clan or series of allied forces group up on comms (voip etc) in a massive 12v12 fight over a planet with several fights happening on the planet at once to take over the planet for their faction. Each pilot would bring 4 mechs, with certain tonnage total restrictions (think you can’t bring 4 auras, and you can’t bring 4 Rhinos either) to make sure that they weren’t doing something cheeky. By the end, each side has 48 mechs, versus 48 mechs, with the goal of taking over the enemy team’s command center, getting past turrets, blowing em up, etc. It was AWESOME. The problem with this? MechWarrior was at a dry period. It wasn’t well advertised, it had lost some players (crap, it lost ME, why would any game be fine losing a player who put over a thousand dollars into it?) and it had some strange balance issues because of the introduction of “clan mechs” which were supposed to be more powerful mechs that should eat normal mechs for breakfast. Emphasis on should. Also, mechs in this game were expensive, EACH mech was usually 10$ (price of a single merc in DB, or two cases) and at the time you needed THREE mechs to start mastering a mech’s proficiency blah blah blah. So I came from a game way more expensive than DB, that had even lower players, etc… Edit: (this mode would often take between 20 minutes to an hour and a half… until they added a timer :D)
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! So how did MWO survive, in fact, did it? Basically, they were still in BETA. And they needed some more advertising, more players, etc. so they pushed for a STEAM launch with a huge revamp to community warfare, balance, mech tweaks, the experience of mechs, etc. At first, it was a little shaky, but the numbers climbed steadily to about 30-40,000 players from very small numbers at MWOs lowest. As certain players realized the game wasn’t for them, it dropped down a little bit, but the game is going strong and Piranha games now has an additional two games coming out this year alone that were mainly funded from the ongoing success of MWO. For those of you doubting, and looking up steam charts, that’s not the only client people log in with, just click the link I have in this paragraph.

Beta Trend

So… that’s essentially “the beta trend” use a smaller group to make sure a game’s features are polished, that they function correctly under the right settings, and then do huge publicity acts to get a following, and maintain their niche. MWO wasn’t the first to do it, and they are just one among many who’ve been successful. I have every reason to believe this will work for Splash Damage because it worked for Piranha games:

Looking at it now, it’s very very eerily eerily similar to DB now. We’re getting a huge revamp to the loadouts system, we have weapon skins now as an honestly fun award given here and there, and we’ll likely be launching with an event and a revamped emphasis on ranked mode and fixes to CMM after 1.0. 1.0 will work, something very similar worked for MWO, and MWO is still going strong, they have the game they wanted, and we’ll likely have the game Splash Damage meant to make as soon as more players come in.

So with all that said, I think it’s also important to talk about different things that Splash Damage should do to make sure that this is huge, the most important aspects of Dirty Bomb. For MWO it was high mech customizability, team play, “competitive” if you will, etc. As well as discussing what’s necessary for Dirty Bomb’s continued success, as in how many players do we believe we actually need for DB to have no hiccups, how many for growth, etc?


(Xenithos) #2

So first off, issues we have:

  • Player retention, and players knowing what mercs they like.
  • A garbage tutorial, or at least garbage players leaving it.
  • Higher up players not mixing well with lower players.
  • Low population
  • Server issues (sometimes, mainly netcode basics)
  • EV (need I say more?)
  • Balance? Is Balance actually that bad? I don’t think it is… but I think it’s messed up by:
  • MERC STACKING
  • Crappy and essentially non-existent clan system.
  • Etc.

Feel free to list issues, but from here on out you also have to post a SOLUTION if you can think of one, or at least an ATTEMPT. Here we go!


(Xenithos) #3

Player Retention

I think that a big part of player retention is not only that they’re having a fun time, but also that they get to properly find a merc that suits them and they can play. So I would say there are a few things we can do better here. First, when 1.0 hits we’ll have a large population, etc, it’ll be great on balance at least for a week as CMM does it’s job and assigns ELOs.

But as for access to mercs, I think only being able to access a total of 7 mercs during this time (skyhammer, aura, Bushwhacker, plus the 3 freebies of the week) will be lame. So I say that all players are given access to all mercs until level 10. And that this is explained to them, that all mercs are temporary, and the current weekly change up can occur. I think we should have an all mercs free period when the game releases for a week or so, so that returning players can also experiment with all the different mercs before moving on. I also believe that maybe they should be given access to the rest of the mercs temporarily after completing the tutorial, so instead of being given free reign immediately, they have to pass, let’s say, 3 matches with bush aura and sky, before they can go crazy.

Dirty Bomb has also addressed all the possible p2w arguments with lead > Cobalt stuff, and base loadouts are “newb friendly” now too, so we’re already moving in the right direction.

Another problem with Player retention is also negativity. So to those of you out there who are coming back to play, or who are currently playing and not happy, don’t complain every single match about balance, and maybe ease up on your rarely pressed page up keys when shuffle votes come around. Also, try helping your fellow players out rather than berating them. They’re level 3, they may somehow have gotten to that level without knowing how to put down a healing station in a closed off location, alright?


(Xenithos) #4

Merc Stacking

This one is a huge problem with DB, oftentimes because many players end up also causing there to be a lack of something else vital to the team, like medics or ammo.

I think one half of this is addressed above under player retention. First, Enabling all new players to be able to play with any merc they please until level 10 or so (maybe less… being honest we still have less than 5% of Steam’s population of DB players have hit level 10…) and all returning players being able to play with any merc they please (maybe just on weekends) allows more merc variety.

The second half of this problem is just flat getting rid of merc stacking. Limit merc stacking to 2, maybe even down to 1. Please Splash Damage, you’re eventually going to have to do it. Maybe even just for ranked you enable all mercs to be played, and the one merc limit, and casual can have anything goes. :slight_smile:


(Xenithos) #5

EV - Escort Vehicle

We’ve been complaining about it for months, and the fact that you said not until after 1.0 is going to look VERY bad for a lot of newer players the moment they see that EV and the fact that they have to repair it on over half of the maps in DB. You’re going to need to at least do some small hitbox fixing to make it “passable”


(Xenithos) #6

Alright, you guys get the drift, hopefully there’s some constructive stuff here by tomorrow.


(Splicerrr) #7

@Xenithos said:

But as for access to mercs, I think only being able to access a total of 7 mercs during this time (skyhammer, aura, Bushwhacker, plus the 3 freebies of the week) will be lame. So I say that all players are given access to all mercs until level 10. And that this is explained to them, that all mercs are temporary, and the current weekly change up can occur. I think we should have an all mercs free period when the game releases for a week or so, so that returning players can also experiment with all the different mercs before moving on. I also believe that maybe they should be given access to the rest of the mercs temporarily after completing the tutorial, so instead of being given free reign immediately, they have to pass, let’s say, 3 matches with bush aura and sky, before they can go crazy.

An idea I had was to give a merc for free for a period of time while completing a daily mission for it. Lets say a new player doesn’t have the merc Stoker. He gets the stoker mission for 1000 credits (or less) AND he also gets stoker for a short period of time to complete the mission WHILE seeing if he likes the merc or not.


(Splicerrr) #8

@Xenithos said:

Merc Stacking

This one is a huge problem with DB, oftentimes because many players end up also causing there to be a lack of something else vital to the team, like medics or ammo.

I think one half of this is addressed above under player retention. First, Enabling all new players to be able to play with any merc they please until level 10 or so (maybe less… being honest we still have less than 5% of Steam’s population of DB players have hit level 10…) and all returning players being able to play with any merc they please (maybe just on weekends) allows more merc variety.

The second half of this problem is just flat getting rid of merc stacking. Limit merc stacking to 2, maybe even down to 1. Please Splash Damage, you’re eventually going to have to do it. Maybe even just for ranked you enable all mercs to be played, and the one merc limit, and casual can have anything goes. :slight_smile:

Limiting mercs definitely needs to be in dirty bomb, and almost every game with “character gameplay” (not calling db a hero shooter pls don’t be triggrd) has a way of making sure every team is balanced. It will probably be a option for when you can host/buy/rent your own servers. I don’t think it will be necessary for casual play but it definitely needs to be in ranked. The frontline/tank mercs and recons should be limited to 1, and the rest should be 2 or 3, since its 5v5.

Once everyone is loaded in the server, there should be a time period where you choose what merc you want to play out of your 3. If someone took, lets say rhino then nobody on your team will be able to play a frontline/tank merc until he switches out. But a problem with this would be if a annoying teammate won’t switch out because he is performing badly with that merc.

A secondary option is to choose ONE merc to play for the entire game. Players would be given time to choose what merc they will play before the game starts. Basically first come, first serve. If someone took rhino, then you can’t play fragger for example. But again, this has the same problem as the first one.

I’m curious of how db will have this in the game, since you always have 3 mercs on you at all times.


(TheStrangerous) #9

And UT4 is still in PRE-ALPHA stage. :smiley:
Yeah, we all know to where Epic went.

DB’s future is still uncertain, yes the Alpha stage is hopeless, but the 1.0 can either break ther game (look at PUBG) or make the game (look at… ughh… got no examples).


(TheManBehindTheMask) #10

@TheStrangerous said:
And UT4 is still in PRE-ALPHA stage. :smiley:
Yeah, we all know to where Epic went.

DB’s future is still uncertain, yes the Alpha stage is hopeless, but the 1.0 can either break ther game (look at PUBG) or make the game (look at… ughh… got no examples).

Controversial but Minecraft kinda as an example. And maybe Rust and 7 Day to Die , Subnautica,…


(n-x) #11

Deleted, added nothing to the thread and especially not any solution.


(Ptiloui) #12

@Xenithos said:

Merc Stacking

As @Splicerrr said, it’s not a real problem in casual matches. Of course it’s sometimes really annoying but it’s casual, so just do the same :D. But ranked is another story and there should be a merc limit in this mode. But with the squad system, you’ll always have situation where people can’t play any merc because there are all already played (Believe me, I did some tests with mercs pick restriction, it just never works ^^).

So, if you want to apply merc limit in ranked mode, you must limit a squad to only 2 mercs and apply a restriction where the same merc cannot be picked by more than two players (ugly solution)
OR get rid of the squad system.

@Xenithos said:

Player Retention

I think player retention can be solved by one thing : progression feeling, aka learning curve.

The (reworked) tutorial will may be great, but it would be good to add in match tips and tools too. Like, a new comers picked Skyhammer and someone in his team is lacking ammo. There is already the ammo icon above this person head but adding a voice that say “An ally needs ammo, give some to him now !” with the operator voice should helps them a lot, especially that people may be really confused sometimes when in real matches.

Also, having special beginner’s missions may encourage them to complete their role, giving them the feeling that they’re doing something useful while being rewarded for doing so. Instead of having random mission like “6000 combat xp”, I’d rather see new players having missions like “Revive X teammates as Aura” or “Give X ammo packs to teammates as Skyhammer” to make them work toward a team play spirit rather than just “kill the enemy, gg”.

And then, encouraging them to do the assault course more. It may be too basic at first sight but god how much you learn from movement and aiming in this simple course ! Getting a trinket is cool, but getting something more useful or shiny would be better (like a prime loadout case if you get the gold and cobalt score).

All these tweak should motivate people to always try to get better in DB (the Assault course can globally do this on his own, it just needs better rewards). If after all this people don’t stay in the game, it’s just that it doesn’t fit their taste.


(phobiatic) #13

Thank you @Xenithos for the very insightful post. Agree with most if not all of the points you bring up.

  • Beta trending
    For me dirty bomb has been using the beta where it should be used for, test and optimize the game before the official release. But lately with their “wait for 1.0 release”, idk who decided that kind of marketing but it feel like they pushing away the community and do their own thing. For them I hope they did listen and make changes that are needed else it might backfire very hard on them in an even more negative way then these forums were lately.

  • Player Retention
    They try to reward players that play daily with the reward system. But they should also add more rewards for leveling and progressing.

  1. Add that players can pick a free merc at reaching lvl 6 or 7.

  2. The current reward system and boxes give me mostly fragments, yes for older players that is nice but those players are swimming in those anyway. They should focus on the newer players and their access to merc and cards, guess what both of those come from credits and not from fragments. Why they don’t make it that you only earn credits and you decide if you buy boxes / cards / mercs with them. Since if you need those fragments you can just spend those credits on boxes and destroy the cards from those, with ofc a chance to get silver/gold for your favorite mercs but also to get more fragments then the usual 20-50 we get now.

  3. Give us an option to gain access to the weapon skins. Now it just a paying service and new players will see it as a roadblock because they new and wont spend money until they really interesting. This can be achieved by giving 1 free skin box every 10 levels or so.

  • Merc stacking
    This wasn’t an issue at the beginning of the beta because of the limited amount of mercs. But with adding more and more mercs I agree this is an issue.
    The limitation of mercs should be based on the type of server, is it a 5vs5 ranked or a 7vs7 casual. Since in a 5vs5 stacking is not going to be very efficient if the enemy can counter them. But in 7vs7 is quickly become an uncontrollable mess.
    ranked should be limited to 1 merc / team and don’t let people join ranked server until they fill up their loadout with each role (1 medic, 1 engineer, 1 assault) but this require more access to mercs for newer players.
    Casual you can pick random loadout and have a merc limit of 2 / team to give more freedom and allow players to practice their mercs and loadouts.

  • EV
    Well it is clear that they need to rework the hitbox of the EV. You can’t have it in ranked matches that you win or lose matches because you can get stuck or bounced away by a moving object.

  • Aim punch
    To add an issue for me is the aim punch we currently have. I have no issue with a visual system that move your cursor up while being body / headshot. But adding to it that you also have random spread add no value for a game that aim towards “skilled gameplay”. Keep it visual as you had it in W:ET. There’s no place for random spread that players can’t compensate in any shooter.

  • Server and game performance
    The game menu feel very lagy and take a while to change menu etc.
    For the server performance it need some rework on the hit detection and netcode. Not sure if the telemetry has anything to do with this but the server lately took a big hit and i die more often in full cover and hits not registering.
    Add back the max lv6 servers and min lv20 servers on server browser. This to give players a more “balanced” option then random players.


(Eox) #14

@Xenithos said:

Merc Stacking

This one is a huge problem with DB, oftentimes because many players end up also causing there to be a lack of something else vital to the team, like medics or ammo.

I think one half of this is addressed above under player retention. First, Enabling all new players to be able to play with any merc they please until level 10 or so (maybe less… being honest we still have less than 5% of Steam’s population of DB players have hit level 10…) and all returning players being able to play with any merc they please (maybe just on weekends) allows more merc variety.

Giving all mercs for free to beginers until level 10 doesn’t sound like a good idea at all. First of all, it can be exploited very easly by doing new accounts everytime you reach level 10. Sure you’re going to lose your loadout cards every 10 levels if you do that, but bronze loadouts aren’t hard at all to craft. Second, it’s going to feel for new players like a huge kick in the balls. Imagine, you have a video game, and after you play it for 10 hours it self destructs : it wouldn’t feel good at all IMO. It would be extremely confusing for new players.

Instead, I’d rather introduce some kind of trial period that you can trigger for a selected merc at any moment. You can only trigger it once per account. Once triggered, it will enable that merc for free and for a 24 hour duration. It means that a new player would be able to try any merc for a whole day for free in addition of free rotation.

I would also make it so the unlocking progression of players is sped up for their first levels. The goal would be that new players could unlock at least three new mercs before reaching level 10, which would give them a good headstart that might make them feel like staying in game.

Back to the merc stacking theme : I can’t see any merc stacking rule being applied on official servers in server browser. People would be way too quick to complain about it. But it could work as an option that you can enable if you rent your own servers (if SD is going to allow us to do it so ofc). It can also be added to ranked rules for sure. As for CMM, as you said, anything goes. But I think it could be possible to tweak the CMM algorithm so it attempts to not make too much players with the same merc together (unless it can’t do otherwise ofc. It wouldn’t be a main parameter).


(Xenithos) #15

@Splicerrr said:

@Xenithos said:

Merc Stacking

This one is a huge problem with DB, oftentimes because many players end up also causing there to be a lack of something else vital to the team, like medics or ammo.

I think one half of this is addressed above under player retention. First, Enabling all new players to be able to play with any merc they please until level 10 or so (maybe less… being honest we still have less than 5% of Steam’s population of DB players have hit level 10…) and all returning players being able to play with any merc they please (maybe just on weekends) allows more merc variety.

The second half of this problem is just flat getting rid of merc stacking. Limit merc stacking to 2, maybe even down to 1. Please Splash Damage, you’re eventually going to have to do it. Maybe even just for ranked you enable all mercs to be played, and the one merc limit, and casual can have anything goes. :slight_smile:

A secondary option is to choose ONE merc to play for the entire game. Players would be given time to choose what merc they will play before the game starts. Basically first come, first serve. If someone took rhino, then you can’t play fragger for example. But again, this has the same problem as the first one.
You may already know this but this is almost exactly how DBN sets up player roles for the match. You pick what you want, and first come first serve unless someone’s feeling fine letting you play what you wanted. Sometimes this is awesome, sometimes this kinda sucks, but it’s almost always a good match. :slight_smile:


(Xenithos) #16

@Ptiloui said:

@Xenithos said:

Merc Stacking

So, if you want to apply merc limit in ranked mode, you must limit a squad to only 2 mercs and apply a restriction where the same merc cannot be picked by more than two players (ugly solution)
OR get rid of the squad system.
That’s sadly most of what I see too. No great way to fix the issue.

@Xenithos said:

Player Retention

I think player retention can be solved by one thing : progression feeling, aka learning curve.
I love the ideas you presented here. Each of these cements progression AND skill learning curve at the same time for newer players.
The (reworked) tutorial will may be great, but it would be good to add in match tips and tools too. Like, a new comers picked Skyhammer and someone in his team is lacking ammo. There is already the ammo icon above this person head but adding a voice that say “An ally needs ammo, give some to him now!” with the operator voice should helps them a lot, especially that people may be really confused sometimes when in real matches.
Decent, may not be the most elegant way. Might be easier if there’s a new line added for the mercs for ammo or Jackal Commander is more specific, SKYHAMMER NEEDS AMMO.
having special beginner’s missions may encourage them to complete their role, giving them the feeling that they’re doing something useful while being rewarded for doing so. Instead of having random mission like “6000 combat xp”, I’d rather see new players having missions like “Revive X teammates as Aura” or “Give X ammo packs to teammates as Skyhammer” to make them work toward a team play spirit rather than just “kill the enemy, gg”.
THIS IS AN AWESOME SPLENDED IDEA. SPLASH DAMAGE COME READ IT. @stayfreshshoe
And then, encouraging them to do the assault course more. It may be too basic at first sight but man how much you learn from movement and aiming in this simple course! Getting a trinket is cool, but getting something more useful or shiny would be better (like a prime loadout case if you get the gold and cobalt score).
Fully agree, that course is awesome, can teach a lot.