The 2 ways of balancing weapons...


(PixelTwitch) #1

There are actually many different ways to balance weapons in a game but I really want to focus this discussion on the 2 ways I see to be most viable for Dirty Bomb. When I say viability I really just mean ways that could be easily switched between using current game assets and without changing the games course. I will attempt to list both the pros and cons with each of the systems and explain quickly and clearly my methodology.

SYSTEM [1] - Balance the weapons within their “class” - (Current System)
Currently the weapons are balanced within there respective classes. This means that you could likely substitute any SMG for any other SMG on any Merc without drastically shifting the balance. Obviously this is not completely the case right now as Bushwhackers SMG seems very strong in comparison to the others but overall, in future they should be relatively equal and really down to preference.

However, due to the solid balance on weapon types it becomes harder to allow Mercs to have a weapon selection outside of their default weapon class. This becomes evident when you have a Thunder with a Skyhammers assault rifle. While the assault rifles are very good, without the ammo packs and larger clips that would suit a heavy Mercs role better, the assault rifle is effectively left feeling rather weak. With this first pass on the card loadout system we are able to see a few variations of this issue, specially when it comes to secondary weapons.

This system does allow Mercs to have a very simple selection of weapons within their default weapons class and it does mean balancing is easier in some respects. What it does not allow for is player choice and that is where we could do with some more discussion. If the plan is to have each Mercs have a very distinct play style, then it will work fine mechanically. I still cannot help but feel we are all missing out on some real diversity though.

PROS

[ul]
[li]Easier to broadly balance multiple weapons at once.
[/li][li]Allows Mercs to maintain a set thouhout play.
[/li][li]The system is almost already complete.
[/li][li]
[/li][/ul]

CONS

[ul]
[li]Limits the number of Merc play styles
[/li][li]Poor balance instantly effects multiple Mercs.
[/li][li]Weapons all effectively become one and the same.
[/li][li]One of the weapons in the class will always be the “best”
[/li][li]
[/li][/ul]

SYSTEM [1] - Balance the weapons within their “tier”
Balancing within a tier basically means you can have different weapons from different weapon classes provided that they are around the same power. Obviously, in a Merc based game you would not allow a shotgun class to run around quickly with something like a huge LMG but I am sure you get the picture. This does however work well provided that you are able to balance weapons between the classes fairly well.

I suppose the basics of a system like this would mean while having weak SMGs we would also have SMGs that are technically more powerful than an assault rifle. Even an assault rifle that that puts more damage per shot down range than an LMG.

At first glance the system may sound flawed but I can assure you that it would not have to be the case. One of the things that really stands out is giving a Fragger or Thunder an assault rifle that pumps out more damage and has a lower RoF kinda like Fraggers default weapon but with more recoil and a smaller ammo count. This way you can try and balance vs many more interesting avenues. While the weapons would still be balanced they would not feel the same to use. With the right selection of weapons per Merc (limitations set my SD) you can even maintain things like the optimal ranges and overall play style. One example of this already in many respects is giving Stoker the bust rifle that Kira had by default. In some instances I would prefer to have the AK but others the AUG. The way you play Stoker when it comes to his role remains basically the same however the way it feels to play that role can feel drastically different.

The only real issue that I would have with this model is where shotguns and snipers are concerned. Giving an option outside of them classes would kinda feel strange. However, I feel with attachments and/or other variations on them weapons that problem could be solved. I still want to see a slug based shotgun and even a weaker auto sniper that is effectively spammed at close range. This would then allow for a wider group of people (with different skill sets) to compete with any Merc in the correct team role while managing to maintain player choice and diverse feel.

PROS

[ul]
[li]Does not render certain weapons of a class, non-optimal
[/li][li]Allows for more player choice while maintain set roles.
[/li][li]Let’s you balance weapons without effecting classes.
[/li][li]Widens the potential to balance for skill.
[/li][/ul]

CONS

[ul]
[li]Would require a few more weapons.
[/li][li]Shotguns and Snipers would need a rework.
[/li][li]More individule aspects to balance.
[/li][li]Poor weapon choices by SD could result in removing Mercs from roles.
[/li][li]
[/li][/ul]

Overall this is just the way I wish things where done for many reasons that I really don’t have time to go into right now. This would really help out on the secondary weapons front where the class balance is the most flimsy right now. I would love to have a hard to use assault rifle that deals some decent damage being held by Thunder. I would like to see a powerful carbine with slower fire rate in the hands of of Sawbonez. I would also love to see a high powered at medium range SMG with low recoil but higher random bullet deviation for the less skilled players to be able to be effective with a Field Ops Merc.

What do you guys think?


(stealth6) #2

Shouldn’t the second system [1] be system [2]

With the tier system wouldn’t it be harder to know what to expect from an enemy? I’m not sure if this is a pro or a con, but I’m leaning more towards con.


(Glottis-3D) #3

it was not in ET, so no thnx. :smiley:

I would like a system, that can give a player more choices, even if it is more difficult to balance.
for example i dont like shotguns, so i’d like not to have them in my inventory. but i like mines, sticky bombs etc. (now only available with shotguns)


(Mustang) #4

[QUOTE=Glottis-3D;509739]I would like a system, that can give a player more choices, even if it is more difficult to balance.
for example i dont like shotguns, so i’d like not to have them in my inventory. but i like mines, sticky bombs etc. (now only available with shotguns)[/QUOTE]
You’ll be able to trade shotgun for a smg at some point, at least it’s been said this will be happening for a long time now. I think PixelTwitch is also saying you could use a weak AR or rifle, which I don’t like the sound of, because as stealth6 said you won’t know what to expect from a given merc, which is kind of the whole point in having a merc system in the first place.


(Glottis-3D) #5

i agree.
if you see sniper, you got to know that he has one of his sniper-rifles, but not an AR or Shotgun.


(spookify) #6

Add Red-Dot and 3.4x and Smooth out the game and the balance will be a lot different…

SD only wants Iron-sights at long range or possibly mid/long range but with zero spread and recoil that can be compensated for this game will turn into a full small map iron-sight game. Sort of like COD. The TTK should be even faster with add-on’s…


(Sun_Sheng) #7

Personally i think there’s a good case for the Cod ‘pick 10’ way of doing things where potentially you can choose a high damage or rof weapon, but it will cost you so many points you may prefer to go for a weaker one that would allow you to carry an extra mine to defend your plant. Then again you could go for a max damage weapon that would leave you short on points for armour. Integrating that into a merc based system that is linked into cards and rewards for completing missions or challenges, could work rather well


(Mustang) #8

Yea I also think it would be cool to have finer customisability of these sort of things, but when I suggested it SD said they were happy with the predetermined augment thing instead, so I don’t see this being on the cards for a very long time, if ever.


(PixelTwitch) #9

Actually I understand what people are concerned about when it comes to the “not knowing what to expect” but I did try and make sure I mentioned in the post that it would keep them at the same range. I also did mention that shoguns would stay as shotguns and such.

Personally when I see a Thunder with Skyhammers rifle or Stoker with Kiras rifle I don’t think “Omg WTF?”
If we was seeing Proxy with Fraggers LMG though I think I might lol.

I feel I have badly explained myself in this post now reading it back :frowning:


(Mustang) #10

Some examples and/or visual representations are usually faster and easier to digest than walls of text, I can’t really tell the difference between the two from your description.


(tangoliber) #11

Weapons and class abilities all balanced as one for each Merc Loadout. (Could have powerful weapons and weak abilities, or powerful abilities with weak weapons.)


#12

I didnt understand what you meant in this thread, but I think have understood what you meant in other threads.

I my self do think there are “op” weapons/items/heroes/characters in many games such as COD and Mobas, and the fun is to try them all, but eventually use he op one.

To know what weapon is op, and op in what situation, op in what playstyle, what places to shoot from in maps, etc, devides the noobs from the experienced ones, and that is good. Knowledge should be power.

I do not like when all weapons are “the same” as in DPS (damage per second).
One should not make calculations as groundwork for how to balance gunds.

Im not a game designer though. And as a player I have taste.

Not saying its wrong or not.

Just saying I prefer OP stuff, and most people do.

In my experience people only whine when they dont know how to counter OP stuff, due to lack of knowledge, or lack of will to adapt and change their playstyle or tactics for the specifi situation.
For example a shotgun WILL be better than a sniper in close range (for example in a corridor). A sniper who whines then, is just a bad loser.

To my experience, the more age the players the has the more likely it is for the player to understand its their own fault they died.

So please dont listen to whiners about “op” stuff, when there is actually counters, or ways to avoid the other players OP situations.

A game can maybe feel flat when its based on too much calculations to cut everything essentually equal.

Mobas or COD arent equal. Players just adapt to use your pros in the right place. And stay safe when we have our cons.

But taste is a big thing too.

I havent voted yed, since I didnt understand the options.


(tokamak) #13

‘Within class’ balancing may lead to less ways you can play that particular merc, however, that’s the point of within class balancing. It keeps the mercs distinct and that heightens the diversity.

It’s not a con, it’s a pro.


(PixelTwitch) #14

[QUOTE=tokamak;509880]‘Within class’ balancing may lead to less ways you can play that particular merc, however, that’s the point of within class balancing. It keeps the mercs distinct and that heightens the diversity.

It’s not a con, it’s a pro.[/QUOTE]

I disagree…
I think before they decided to give mercs each others weapons it was a pro.
However playing Aura with Proxys shotgun or Sawbones with Naders smg just feels wrong.
If SD had unlimited budget and I was incharge I would have personally gone for each merc having their own set of weapons that no other Merc can use…
Alas, that is not the situation and I feel personally that giving them weapons that are not defaulted to other similar mercs (in the same class) you will be able to keep hold of more of that individuality


(INF3RN0) #15

I’d like to see the merc variety expanded through other ways than weapons first. I think the game ought to balance weapons and abilities separately, rather than having lopsided logic in terms of balance. Then you wouldn’t need to worry about restrictions nearly as much and weapons would generally feel more play style than power. Abilities ought to be the more defining attributes of mercs, more so than the weapons they can use. So with that said, I can deal with the weapon system for now (card system does help break it up some), so I’d rather SD focused on other areas before comic back to this topic.


(Glottis-3D) #16

if we have counter Abilities, then we can balance weapons separately. currently we dont have counters, for most powerful ones. (Skyhammer & Arty)

different suggestions:

  1. ETQW-style strogg shield. but make it umbrella-like. and more area covered. this shield will absorb damage from strikes, artillery and molotovs and grenade-explosions.
  2. air-defence drones. (they shoot down half of Arty’s and half of Skyhammer’ air bombs/rockets.)
  3. Radio-jamming, that prevents the whole strike/artyllery for some seconds.

(tokamak) #17

[QUOTE=PixelTwitch;509882]I disagree…
I think before they decided to give mercs each others weapons it was a pro.
However playing Aura with Proxys shotgun or Sawbones with Naders smg just feels wrong.
If SD had unlimited budget and I was incharge I would have personally gone for each merc having their own set of weapons that no other Merc can use…
Alas, that is not the situation and I feel personally that giving them weapons that are not defaulted to other similar mercs (in the same class) you will be able to keep hold of more of that individuality[/QUOTE]

Oh sure, initially there’s nothing wrong with making the similar weapons interchangeable. Like in ETQW both the field ops and the covert ops have the accurised assault rifle. For the sake of clarity it would help to at least keep them cosmetically (audio and visuals) slightly different, but in utility it greatly depends on the merc’s role and how it compares to the merc the weapon is ‘borrowed’ from.

But that sort of stuff is still honouring the distinction between the mercs. The point still stands that too much diversity in the weapon choice causes the mercs to overlap and become more mediocre in the process.

It’s best to see each merc as an individual ‘bell curve’ of utility within the game. The more overlap between these bell curves, the more muddy the gameplay will be. If there’s not enough overlap however, there will be unused ‘gaps’, roles that will never be fulfilled. So it takes a lot of care, intelligence and well, taste to keep that balance.