Sustaining 'fun'

[RasteRayzeR]

wouldnt it be possible to change just little things. Like ROF, Spawntime, Walking Speed. We don*t need a complete new build for that. This would be good to fixe some of the major problems atm.

For that you gonna have to trust the devs, they have our feedback, they will take it and process it in time. Always remember the wisdom of John Carmack : “It will be ready when it is ready”. Patience my friend, patience.

[tokamak]

wouldnt it be possible to change just little things. Like ROF, Spawntime, Walking Speed. We don*t need a complete new build for that. This would be good to fixe some of the major problems atm.

I think that´s what the future of alpha testing games will be like. Servers just generating random combinations of different parameters each match and then regression analysis on all the different covariates in the raw data. A statistician´s wet dream. In no other way can you observe player behaviour in such a controlled environment with such a large potential amount of samples.

Hell, we may even hit one day where all of that is integrated and all the developers have to do is set ideal outcomes (optimal map length, optimal ttk optimal spatial dispersion through the mmap) and the game will then generate procedural ideal parameter combinations through forced evolution.

I don’t know if the above makes sense. To me it does but that may be the grapefruit seed talking.

[Runeforce]

My (almost) completely useless (and some what harsh) input on why this game is no(t enough) fun: no 12vs12 or 16vs16, no large maps with terrain, no vehicles, no trickjumping, no bunnyhopping, no disguises, too fast ttk, no asymetric teams, no S.M.A.R.T. movement etc.

As an example, the SMART movement was almost universely praised by reviewers and gamers alike as a huge game changer in the FPS genre, gamers proclaiming that now that they got used to it, they don’t feel comfortable going back to the old clunky feeling of the pre-smart era, and big blockbusters implementing similar mechanics in the wake of Brink…and yet you leave it out of your next FPS? I don’t get it…!

But it seems to be the story of DB: ditch some of the best, most exiting and innovative features and mechanics from your previous games, and make it more generic, bland, and newb friendly. Compared to ET and ETQW (and in a few aspects also Brink) DB is less of everything (exept the graphics and sound design, which is superb.) So to answer you question straight, for me it’s a problem with the direction. I still think DB compares rather well to other contemporary FPS’, but it could be so much more! A steep learning curve is a good thing, because it means there is more to learn. And that is what sustains the fun!

[rand0m]

[QUOTE=Runeforce;446735]My (almost) completely useless (and some what harsh) input on why this game is no(t enough) fun: no 12vs12 or 16vs16, no large maps with terrain, no vehicles, no trickjumping, no bunnyhopping, no disguises, too fast ttk, no asymetric teams, no S.M.A.R.T. movement etc.

As an example, the SMART movement was almost universely praised by reviewers and gamers alike as a huge game changer in the FPS genre, gamers proclaiming that now that they got used to it, they don’t feel comfortable going back to the old clunky feeling of the pre-smart era, and big blockbusters implementing similar mechanics in the wake of Brink…and yet you leave it out of your next FPS? I don’t get it…!

But it seems to be the story of DB: ditch some of the best, most exiting and innovative features and mechanics from your previous games, and make it more generic, bland, and newb friendly. Compared to ET and ETQW (and in a few aspects also Brink) DB is less of everything (exept the graphics and sound design, which is superb.) So to answer you question straight, for me it’s a problem with the direction. I still think DB compares rather well to other contemporary FPS’, but it could be so much more. A steep learning curve is a good thing in my opinion, because it means there is more to learn. And that is what sustains the fun![/QUOTE]

Almost everything you mentioned is what ruined pc fps gaming to begin with. I sincerely and 100% disagree with you. Brink was awful, smart movement was awful.

[tokamak]

I doubt you read what he wrote.

Anyway, I do agree that the 8v8 is a very limiting ehm, ‘feature’ in this game. It means that you can’t build the maps wider than one main corridor and an occasional side-route without losing cohesion. ETQW and W:ET could get away with lots of cute little strategic choices in the map because most pubs were played with 12v12

[rand0m]

I read it.

[Rex]

Ok, before I’m going to list some things I keep it short and answer your question with: It’s about the game design which causes a lack of fun.
Naming bugs, empty servers, lack of friends in the game, … as reasons seem very silly to me, because these problems get fixed sooner or later anyway.
And empty servers are just a cause of existing issues.
The purpose of the Alpha is shaping the game design, so none of the worst bugs nor the empty servers could destory my fun at this point. But missing essential gameplay features or map design do!

[ul]
[li]Missing movement[/li]This should be on top of your to-do list! Because together with the shooting this marks the biggest point of a FPS game. That’s what players notice first when they try the game.
I know you’re working on crouch jump now, but it isn’t enough. Since strafe jumping is out of consideration now, you really need something to fill this gap.
We want to distinguish players who move better from players who can’t. Beginners need to learn it first and there should be room to improve or even to master it. Furthermore everyone should be able to have his own movement style which supports him infight.

• [li] Reload while sprinting should be possible[/li][li] Using the knife while sprinting should be possible[/li][li] Being faster while cooking nades[/li][/ul]
  
  
  [li] Shooting[/li][ul]
  [li] Lower the RoF - this could be one reason why the TTK is so low[/li][li] Keep spread and recoil as low as possible, as this encourages a tracking based aim which should be the main goal to achieve[/li][/ul]
  
  
  [li]Health regeneration (worst CoD feature), the community clearly doesn’t want it as the poll result says. [/li]You took away the ammo stations, that the players rely on the fops more, now do the same for the medic please.
  
  
  [li]Capturable spawnpoints are completely missing[/li]It’s one of the big features of your former games and I really do wonder (as no SD member has explained yet) why they are missing or why they would be bad. They would add more tactical depth to the game and maps could become bigger without ruining the overall map time.
  
  
  [li]Clear spawn points[/li]At the moment sometimes you spawn here and sometimes you spawn there. I would like to have one common spawn point for the whole team.
  
  
  [li] Spawn times + respawn timer [/li]I think this doesn’t need any further explanation. Though I would like suggest to keep the spawn times a bit slower than the suggested 30secs from some players. I think it was Anti (corret me) who said they want to go easier on the times due to players who are new to their games, so 30sec seem also a bit too much for me. As long as the difference between attacker and defender spawn time stay the same it’s alright.
  It could be also 10sec and 20sec, but this requires a lot of testing of course before so don’t take this suggestion as unalterable.
  
  
  [li]Interaction with the map (still thinking about opening a whole new thread for this)[/li]Beside the stationary MGs, there is absolutely no interaction with the map. Missing ladders or trickjump paths is not all what I try to say. It’s more about getting to ‘special positions’ where you can surprise your enemy. Something you have to figure out first and work on getting there infight, like ‘jump here, then there, then on top of this box’. Or ‘if I jump down right here I will get no fall damage’.
  
  
  [li] Side objectives[/li]Give us more side objectives which are worth fighting for. The best way is to open up new paths with new possibilities to attack, or even to give an advantage.
  
  
  [li] What can you do beside fragging?[/li]Two possibilities: Either you do something useful like doing side objectives which aren’t involved in fragging, building up defensive stuff or you do ‘sh!t’.
  By doing ‘sh!t’ I mean messing around or doing fun stuff, let me give you some examples:
  
  [ul]
  [li] Supply crate tower building (ETQW)[/li][li] Dynamite placing in an elevator (ET)[/li][li] C4 + mines to bring up a tank on the top of a building (BF3)[/ul][/li]It might not be as important as all the points above, but still I think it keeps players interested and excited about the game. Furthermore the ‘exploration factor’ would grow.
  
  
  [li] Maps[/li]Still a lot of work to do here and please don’t be afraid of making drastic changes! Especially to the first 3 maps. Camden is doing much right, but the last objective needs a rework. Though they would need a whole new post with some pictures and a proper description to each.
  
  [ul]
  [li] Please keep in mind that a map which takes 16-18 min to finish (LB), is unsuitable for comp play![/li]Removing the snail engine from the EV could help!
  [/ul]
  
  
• Replace IS with reddots like you did with Engi, I was happily surprised when I saw this the first time last build. We are in the future anyway and this would also help the IS haters more. (I also can’t stand them, but a dot in combination with the fov toggle, how was done in QW, is alright!)

I would also like to suggest to you SD guys to play your old games from time to time. It doesn’t need to be long (~2-5mins) and you can also take an empty server to do so, but just if you ask yourself ‘how did we do this and that there?’ a look won’t be harmful. Especially for movement, shooting and map design.

[QUOTE=Kendle;446157]4. Poor quality player base. Too many playing for frags only, and too many obsessed with making this game ET2 / ET:QW2 and not enough focussed on what a mass market might want. i.e. too many vested interests. This could be lightened by opening up the game to more players as well. Too much influence from too few people, me included!

One of the best points I have seen on these forums. This, however, is not a reason I find the game “un-fun” over time. We do need more people from other games who are NOT Splash Damage fans though!

[/QUOTE]

I strongly disagree with Kendle here, if we are going too mainstream this game will become just yet another random f2p shooter with some random awards. I understand that SD wants to open it more up towards newer players and it already is; pretty easy compared to their older games.
It’s good that this game gets influenced by players who are true SD fans, who know how a good game in spirit of their former games should look like. No one else knows it better than the players who played SD for years! Make a wild guess why they didn’t invite anyone else at the very beginning of the alpha. Do you prefer a sequel (just hypothetically, it won’t happen as everyone knows) to one of the old SD games or would you prefer just yet another casual sh!t game out of many formed by CoD players, for example?

I’m afraid of the date when the beta launches as this could be the day where you have to explain and discuss endlessly, that the core gameplay features of SDs old games are the base to build a new, good game.
Have fun you both by discussing this later with all the new players!

[RasteRayzeR]

+1 for drastic map changes. Lets not be afraid and test new things ^^

[Kendle]

I strongly disagree with Kendle here … It’s good that this game gets influenced by players who are true SD fans

I strongly disagree with you strongly disagreeing with me

Who are the true SD fans? I’d challenge you to name them but the problem is you probably could, because there are so few of them. This game needs mass market appeal precisely because it’s F2P. If it’s only going to appeal to “true SD” fans it’s going to bomb, hard. I’m sorry Rex but you’re just trying to justify why they should make a game you like, rather than make a successful game you might not like.

Make a wild guess why they didn’t invite anyone else at the very beginning of the alpha.

As opposed to who?

[INF3RN0]

Why would anyone who likes CoD or CS just play the newest CoD or CS instead? There’s integrating appeal and then there’s sticking to originality. If the game can prove to be unique in most aspects, but just be easy for players from other games to grasp then they might actually choose to play it. “There’s already hundreds of F2P shooters out there, so why should I care about this game” is the most common quote you will find on the internet.

[stealth6]

Why would anyone who likes CoD or CS just play the newest CoD or CS instead? There’s integrating appeal and then there’s sticking to originality. If the game can prove to be unique in most aspects, but just be easy for players from other games to grasp then they might actually choose to play it. “There’s already hundreds of F2P shooters out there, so why should I care about this game” is the most common quote you will find on the internet.

Isn’t it a bit contradictory to say the game has to be easy to grasp, but at the same time bring something new to the plate?

[Kendle]

Again we’re assuming “any game not following the SD formula” = “COD”.

It’s quite possible for DB to be both different from anything SD have made before and also not be like COD.

As it happens DB does follow the SD formula, and is true to SD’s roots, it just doesn’t tick every single box as far as the features that every previous SD game had.

What makes it different from other F2P games are the classes and objectives and stopwatch mode gameplay. We might all be intensely familiar with these concepts but the wider gaming world isn’t. BF3 possibly comes closest as far as classes are concerned, but even Rush is a poor mans objective, and I don’t know any other game that uses stopwatch.

If there are 100’s of F2P shooters out there like DB please point them out, give me something to play while I’m waiting for a DB server to fill.

[warbie]

Agreed with Rex/Inferno. Bolting on elements from other shooters won’t work. Going half Brink is no better than going full Brink in the long run - CoD/BF fans will still play CoD/BF and the rest of us will stop playing soon after release. And why take the risk? We know RTCW/ET works. In every PC forum I frequent ET is still talked about as a great game - often with people saying they’d pay for a straight remake.

DB needs to be both it’s own game and excellent at the same time and religiously going back to it’s roots is the best chance it has. Has anyone else noticed how every change that has made DB more RTCW/ET-like has been well received and resulted in a noticeably a better game and how every departure results in endless moaning threads and division?

[Volcano]

yep appeal to the few hundred so people who are still stuck in the past

[warbie]

yep appeal to the few hundred so people who are still stuck in the past

And why do you think that? ET is no less fun because it’s old. Do you think a player completely new to this kind of game couldn’t find the same level of enjoyment as the many people who played for years and years?

It’s not being stuck in the past btw - it’s being bored/frustrated with the crappy fps we get these days.

[Anti]

[QUOTE=warbie;446876]
Has anyone else noticed how every change that has made DB more RTCW/ET-like has been well received and resulted in a noticeably a better game and how every departure results in endless moaning threads and division?[/QUOTE]

Well, that’s kind of because 90% of you played W:ET or RTCW I know the same can’t be said of currently active FPS players across the internet, I’d be amazed if 50% of them played either of those games. In that regard we’re taking a bit of a gamble no matter how we place DB as a game.

Just because I enjoyed driving a Rover 250 in 1999 it doesn’t mean I would enjoy driving one again now, especially compared to today’s beautiful fuel efficient cars. Sure nostalgia might carry me through and still cause me to have fun, but for anybody who hadn’t ‘been there’ they’d probably be scratching their head at the prospect.

DB needs to take the best bits of our previous titles, the bits that still stand up in today’s FPS market, as well as modernizing in some areas. Through this alpha we’re figuring out what is still relevant and what isn’t.

[stealth6]

Has anyone else noticed how every change that has made DB more RTCW/ET-like has been well received and resulted in a noticeably a better game and how every departure results in endless moaning threads and division?

Well that’s because the majority of people willing to shell out the 120+ to be here are W:ET or ETQW fans…

[QUOTE=Anti;446880]Well, that’s kind of because 90% of you played W:ET or RTCW I know the same can’t be said of currently active FPS players across the internet, I’d be amazed if 50% of them played either of those games. In that regard we’re taking a bit of a gamble no matter how we place DB as a game.

Just because I enjoyed driving a Rover 250 in 1999 it doesn’t mean I would enjoy driving one again now, especially compared to today’s beautiful fuel efficient cars. Sure nostalgia might carry me through and still cause me to have fun, but for anybody who hadn’t ‘been there’ they’d probably be scratching their head at the prospect.

DB needs to take the best bits of our previous titles, the bits that still stand up in today’s FPS market, as well as modernizing in some areas. Through this alpha we’re figuring out what is still relevant and what isn’t.[/QUOTE]

In other words playing it safe… boring! Take a risk will ya!

[ailmanki]

[QUOTE=Anti;446880]Well, that’s kind of because 90% of you played W:ET or RTCW I know the same can’t be said of currently active FPS players across the internet, I’d be amazed if 50% of them played either of those games. In that regard we’re taking a bit of a gamble no matter how we place DB as a game.

Just because I enjoyed driving a Rover 250 in 1999 it doesn’t mean I would enjoy driving one again now, especially compared to today’s beautiful fuel efficient cars. Sure nostalgia might carry me through and still cause me to have fun, but for anybody who hadn’t ‘been there’ they’d probably be scratching their head at the prospect.

DB needs to take the best bits of our previous titles, the bits that still stand up in today’s FPS market, as well as modernizing in some areas. Through this alpha we’re figuring out what is still relevant and what isn’t.[/QUOTE]

TBH, 3 things mark the previous titles. Good shooting mechanics, good movement mechanics, good objective mechanics. Though I did not like QW, I love ET. The two games are quite different. I expect DB to have those 3 mechanics polished up. Still it should be another game - something else.

I don’t say it needs trickjumping, but it definitely needs to be something in which you can improve your movement the more you play. And it shouldn’t just be to dance unpredictable to evade shooting.
The shooting is obvious… lol. Lots of discussions though.
And yes interacting with the world in a Multiplayer game… lots of potential here.

[Kendle]

Going half Brink is no better than going full Brink in the long run

I’d argue that Brink failed due to poor implementation, not poor design. I’d be happy if DB was Brink “done right” tbh.

religiously going back to it’s roots is the best chance it has.

“Religiously” no, but taking what worked, definitely.

For example I’ve argued long and hard that certain aspects of RTCW should be adopted precisely because we know they work. Spawn waves work, split spawns don’t. Longer spawn times work, short spawn times don’t. Ammo from F/Ops works, ammo from racks / dead bodies doesn’t.

Those changes have been made, and have been well received, but I’d argue they’ve been well received because they make sense, not because they were lifted from previous games.

I’d still want to go further taking aspects that worked in previous games. For example I don’t think regen med packs work, or that global health regen works in a class based shooter which features a class specifically designed to provide health.

But that doesn’t mean we must all have the same generic pea-shooter SMG for the game to work, or that we must have strafe-jumping, or that we must copy / paste every feature of past games.

It’s a case of taking what’s necessary from previous games, to make the mechanics of the new game work, without getting bogged down with stuff that’s not necessary but we all just happened to like it.

[Humate]

:magicpony:

cant delete post : /