Sustaining 'fun'


(Kendle) #61

There is no take and hold because players spawn too quickly and too disjointedly. A few players arrive at the scene from either team in an almost continuous repeating stream, leading to a few people fighting a few other people while their team-mates are still en-route, and no-one getting the upper hand and controlling the area. If it’s an area where an objective has to be achieved it’s done a bit at a time or by luck.

Warbie mentions things like the Tavern in Village. This worked because the defending team got there first and either held it or lost it. If they held it they held it together, and there was a nice long pause before the next attack. And when the next attack came it was full-on, and again they either held or didn’t. And when the attacking team took an area they took it, a few defenders who were killed a few seconds before didn’t magically reappear a few seconds later due to stupidly short spawn times.


(Bangtastic) #62

changes to movement


(SockDog) #63

I see a lot of things posted that I’d class as frustrations rather than cause for boredom, valid reasons to play less perhaps but not necessarily answering the question. Anyway… Some things that come to mind.

Player Feedback
There is a lack of player feedback when playing, both visually and audibly. I’m not just talking of just bullet impacts but everything seems too sterile and withdrawn from the player. Nothing is over the top, there is no build up, no in your face stimulation (oooeerrr). Take this with a pinch but where are the killstreak counters flashing up on the scream, the “HOLY ****!” voice announcements, the peggle fireworks? It’s like DB is trying to be a big grown up game and as a consequence it’s put away the childish things. No longer is this an 10ft pissed up ogre bounding around with an axe in one hand and a rubber chicken in the other, no, this is a 5’11" accountant named Tim who does the taxes for reasonably successful newsagent.

Derp Derp
There seems to be a consistent campaign to reduce the game to some base level shooter, from a surprisingly tasty fruit salad to a bowl of water. It’s chasing a dream, one I don’t think many people share and much like a dream, it’ll soon be forgotten for more tangible and stimulating things. My point? Comp players will play whatever is popular and by association has more competitions/money up for grabs, they’re an easy audience to capture. Stop compromising the core game to appeal to them at the expense of the larger player base. Brink did this, trying to be many games in one and it ended up a schizophrenic mess.

Certainly, from the get go the backend tools need to be there for clans/teams to flourish but damn, give up on trying to make DB both a mass market game and a competitive platform. If nothing else you have plenty of time to release a bowl of water mode once your playerbase is thriving, the comp players will come play the game month or even years after release if it’s still active and thriving. So please, put more derp derp in, have a TTK that’s satisfying for a majority of players, do some crazy stuff that isn’t perfectly balanced.

Imbalanced Teams
This is compounded by the small playerbase but honestly, nothing turns me off more from a game than an imbalanced team and that’s going to persist at full release unless there are some good ways to balance the sides. It might be a problem that faces many TvT games but you know what, those games have a ton of other crap going on to motivate players who are on a losing side. As DB stands right now, if teams are imbalanced I’ll just log off and play something more rewarding, you really are competing for a player’s time on this point and I’m not sure chucking in ol’faithful “shuffle” is going to help to a great extent.

Lack of variety
Going to have to be super vague here but there doesn’t seem to be much variety. Sure the maps change and that gives a slight change in pace but everything still seems to be the same sort of grind. Perhaps that’s just obvious because it’s the same game mode, maybe as people have mentioned, the objectives need more variety somehow.

Game Modes
Continuation of the above point. I just don’t seem invested in playing Objective mode, it feels tired and grindy. It could just be me, it might be the core game tainting the experience or it might just be that Objective mode just isn’t as fun as it used to be. All I can think of is knocking up some rough modes from other games, which are popular, and see how the testers find them over OBJ.

Finally, I have a question for Anti. What is the feedback from SD? Do people in SD play the game outside of work, for fun rather than professional reasons? What crazy **** would they want in there to make it more fun?


(RasteRayzeR) #64

I strongly agree on the lack of variety and I totally agree on the fact that DB is somehow down-shifting to a common game like all the others nowadays. I wish they see that and put into it a clear and distinct SD signature, their style, loved by so many.

I’m working hard to redefine and prepare a map for a base race for DB^^ Will post my first concept arts this week-end I hope.


(Dormamu) #65
  • lack of strafe-jumping; tj
  • one plane fighting; no walljumping, vaulting, sliding, no higher grounds to reach/explore/use; The Table Problem is still a problem :D;
  • no precise or lack of a skill/aura/weapon/thing to improve. (Tribes = Spinfusor; W:ET=SJ/TJ; Brink =Smart, etc)
  • a progression and unlock system, your survey made me realize this :smiley:
  • auto shuffle/shuffle vote.
    Tho, yesterday matches were goood, the most fun matches i had in a wile. Probably because of the teams/red dot/soldier/pc upgrade (Frak You 640x480 resolution! :smiley: )

(tokamak) #66

Of course frustrating gameplay shouldn’t be the reason not to play an alpha. It’s what you can expect from an alpha. It’s just that eventually you just feel that there’s no point until this and that is fixed. The idea that you’re just there generating a footprint for echo isn’t satisfying either but I’d gladly do it when I have more time for that.

I just think there needs to be some sort of RPS system in the general way of shooting things, now WAIT a minute I can already here everyone bristle but bear with me:

Right now only one mode of fighting is valid. It’s moving and shooting. In ETQW this is not so. A stationary player is able to control his turf quite well to newcomers. A straight 1v1 is where the most mobile and accurate dude wins and any player with the anticipation and cleverness is always able to surprise entrenched defenders by using different angles. Those are the rock paper and scissors in the shooting side of ETQW. There’s always a mode that can trumph the other. They’re really crude and their borders are ill defined and that’s a good thing. It’s not cut and dry but highly ambiguous and often it can be bypassed by great aiming but it’s still present. ETQW has it, W:ET has it to a slightly lower extend but as mentioned before, the maps make everything right here, Brink doesn’t have it due to it’s high TTK taking out all the nuances and DB doesn’t have it due mobile combat being the only valid way to play.

It really lies in the range of ways a player can express himself shooting wise. It’s not just maps. Import an exact replica of Salvage or Goldrush in DB and you still have a repetitive grind that runs stale very fast.


(.N.E.R.D.) #67

I need shock paddles that do damage to sustain the fun


(tokamak) #68

Goes without saying. Or perhaps no damage but some concussion effect.


(Ashog) #69

No spec cam when gibbed. Can’t see what other mates doing - a lot of fun is lost, as well as info about what’s going on. The problem also is that even if the cam was there, there’d be not enough time to watch between spawns - the spawn timers are too short. But hopefully they will be increased due to other reasons (discussed in other threads). Maybe this would allow a spec cam after a death ghost?


(en2ie) #70

Interesting thread, the only real time I have had “fun” playing DB was on the developer friday. I am pretty sure this was because I was playing against players who were of a similar skill. It is very hard to tell why but I agree that after a few maps I have had enough of DB and would leave.

I think of ETQW and why I loved it, the big differences in the map settings like one in the dessert, the next with snow, the next a massive volcano or whatever. ETQW had a real character to it, which (at this early stage) DB just doesn’t have. Maybe a commander voice and more maps with a varying visual/gameplay style would help here.


(tokamak) #71

That’s mostly cosmetic though. That’s the least of DB´s worries.


(Dragonji) #72

@tokamak

:stroggtapir:


(stealth6) #73

For me it’s the amount of players playing at one time. Either the servers are full and you can’t get in or the server’s struggling on roughly 3v3 or 4v4 which after a several attempts at hanging around trying to get more people online gets boring. Another scenario is that I finally get into the busy server and then it empties 1 or 2 matches later.

So either get more people to keep the servers at an optimum capacity for play (6v6+) or preferably make the game more appealing when there are less players. For example add trickjumping so I can keep myself busy with something as I walk around the map looking for the 3 enemies tucked away in various corners. In the beginning I’d try throwing medpacks at objects to see what happens or try to get to odd spots etc, but after a couple of hours of that it tends to loose it’s charm thanks to the limited abilities.

EDIT: Another possible solution could be increasing the maximum slots on a server so there is a larger buffer for people leaving and joining. Then it has less of an impact on the game. (24 slots is the sweet spot imo) But obviously this is the most radical idea since the maps would probably have to be adjusted too.

Maybe you could implement dynamic maps that block off certain routes when there are less players so you keep them in the same areas, - This is a pretty far fetched idea,


(Humate) #74

*Deathball gun fights - If you think about how class actions work in Brink, where everyone clumps up into a group spamming the unibutton, thats essentially how DB plays but with combat. You want players to use the map in its entirety on each objective. You want your weakest defenders to camp themselves at the objective itself, and you want your strong infantry players to control the middle and outskirt paths leading to the objective, and you want your best infantry player to defend the shortest route possible. At the moment this formation is useless in DB - when the attackers all in lemming rush the shortest route possible, the best fragger on the defending team auto-dies. As a result the defending team feels compelled to defend that path with equal numbers creating one large meat-grind.

*Class composition & Damage output - if the attacking team opts to go 5 soldiers on a plant objective, the defending team shouldnt feel compelled to match that class composition.The potential damage output of running that class composition favours a team more than the benefits of running the other classes for their class abilities. The solution isnt to amplify the class abilities of the other classes. The solution is to increase the skill requirement to play Soldier.


(Bloodbite) #75

I’m ditto-ing this.

While some good points have been made, the real reason why people are reaching that “I don’t care for another match” feeling is because the game is alpha. More importantly the class mechanics are far from being implemented, and that is the true core of what we all find ‘fun’ about this style of game.

When matches devolve into TDM’s around objectives, it’s incredibly boring. When I’ve seen that happen, I start asking why I’m not playing something else where there are more people to shoot against, and there is zero interest OR expectation for the community of that particular title to last more than another 8 to 12 months at the very best… and even if it does, I don’t care (I feel that way about Crysis 3 multi at the moment, it can be plenty fun but… there is that apathetic “but…” in the equation).

Even when matches are done properly, there are still too many class mechanics missing for it to feel truly fulfilling. And because of that lack of gratification, it muddles up the whole alpha test phase from our side of things as there are still man that want more gaming than testing out of the experience than is SUPPOSED to be going on right now.

I am of the opinion that “fun” is not something to be concerned about right now. I have to confess I am less inclined to log on in the few spare moments I have for gaming because I have to decide between the options of playing something that is gratifying, or testing something incomplete, and potentially a waste of a gaming session if the few people that I may actually catch online are dicking about… or the ever constant issue for myself and the other southerners here, playing with a high ping against low pingers because the aussie servers are always empty when I log in.

Once all the important class abilities are in there, and we have the option to choose class “things” too (like alternating between a field ops wloadout ith air strikes or arty), then people’s opinions on subjects like the viability of map design is worth listening to, until then it’s all based on the current, mostly-deathmatch-centric manner of play.

Until then, it’s a lot of hot air’ed discussion going on all over the place.

Oh, and I too am not a fan of the F and E button pressing. I still feel that twitch to pull out the pliers and run head first into an entrenched build objective like the ole W:ET and ETQW days… like a REAL engineer should!!!

As a qualifier to my above comment about more “gaming” than “testing”… I was in the open beta for Test Drive Unlimited 2, and that was an extreme example of a lot of things to go do badly with pre-release client testing. It became downright painful to watch how poorly Eden screwed all of that up, and how many game-addicts there were in that beta that still couldn’t see what was really going wrong, or that the game was dead before any of us got into that alleged ‘final’ beta (which was glitchier and had far less implemented than DB’s pre-alpha back in December)…

One of the key things wrong with the actual beta for that game was letting the client/forum process completely be overrun by people treating it as a free preview of the GAME. Since the subject of Nazi’s and germany has popped up recently I will say this in favor of the early stages of the Nazi war… absolute control translated to absolute focus, and that resulted in absolute success. They screwed up when they got distracted, and distraction produces LOSERS.

Here’s how it works

[ul]
[li]Blitzkrieg Nations = Pre-Alpha
[/li][li]Britain = Alpha
[/li][li]Russia = Closed Beta
[/li][li]USA = Open Beta
[/li][/ul]

Eliminate sequentially and ve vill have total victory! :flamethrower:


(TacTicToe) #76

[QUOTE=stealth6;446341]For me it’s the amount of players playing at one time. Either the servers are full and you can’t get in or the server’s struggling on roughly 3v3 or 4v4 which after a several attempts at hanging around trying to get more people online gets boring. Another scenario is that I finally get into the busy server and then it empties 1 or 2 matches later.

So either get more people to keep the servers at an optimum capacity for play (6v6+) or preferably make the game more appealing when there are less players. For example add trickjumping so I can keep myself busy with something as I walk around the map looking for the 3 enemies tucked away in various corners. In the beginning I’d try throwing medpacks at objects to see what happens or try to get to odd spots etc, but after a couple of hours of that it tends to loose it’s charm thanks to the limited abilities.

EDIT: Another possible solution could be increasing the maximum slots on a server so there is a larger buffer for people leaving and joining. Then it has less of an impact on the game. (24 slots is the sweet spot imo) But obviously this is the most radical idea since the maps would probably have to be adjusted too.

Maybe you could implement dynamic maps that block off certain routes when there are less players so you keep them in the same areas, - This is a pretty far fetched idea,[/QUOTE]

I agree with most of this. The whole trick jumping and strafing crap is for the birds though. I just don’t understand why people want that, this is a game not some rag doll olympics. I would never have double jump on our servers, because people would use it to trick jump their way over walls, and IMO ruin the game. In W:ET for example, guys would trick jump right over the wall on Oasis, and go plant dyno. Would piss me off. And then the little pricks would trick plant the dyno to make it nearly impossible to diffuse. Fueldump, people would double jump the gate at the fuel depot, plant and win that way. IMO you are exploiting maps, and it usually gets you a warn/kick from our server. Play the damn maps the way they were meant to be played FFS.

If the dedicated server files are released for public use, AND mod tools are released as well, then I am sure that there will be plenty of trick jumping servers crop up, with applicable maps, just as there is for W:ET. How about we leave this crap out of the core game itself? Leave the novelty stuff for the less serious.

As for the rest, I have yet to play any rounds, as stated, the servers are either full or there is no one on. Since we are still at early alpha, the player base is incredibly limited, and I don’t see that changing in the near future. So I would also propose “testing” a 24 slot server. Ultimately 32 would be where I would like to see it, but 24 is perfectly acceptable. It is a sweet spot. 32 add a little more chaos, which can be fun as well. So if we could have a 24 slot server, then that should be enough slots to have a full server, and really stress test things a bit. I have spent enough time running thru the maps to say that they should be able to work ideally, at this stage with 24 players. As long as there are enough spawn points to warrant the additional slots,

Would be nice if we could also make the EV speed scalable to the number of players in proximity escorting it. That would promote teamwork, in that the more team members nearby, the faster it moves. Could change the speed and dynamics of the game as well. Attacked team will focus on getting the EV moving as quickly as possible, attacking team trying to slow things down by killing the escorts and disabling the EV.

Also, it seems to take way too long to repair that EV. I’m guessing multiple engies will fix it faster, but 6v6 it is hard to have a good balance and get things going. So what do you do? Start off with 3-4 engies just to get the EV going? Then blam and A/S takes it out, and you have to do it all over?

Why do we have to sit there for 3 secs to pick up the canister as well? In the Goldrush map, once the bank doors were down, it was a mad rush to get in there, grab the gold and run like hell. All you had to do was touch the gold crate and run. Between the mg’s, land mines, flame throwers, A/S etc etc, you had a helluva run just to get the gold to the escape truck. Even the Radar map, you grab the radar parts and run. I just don’t see a need or reason for having to hold the F key for 3 secs to pick up and objective. Leaves you vulnerable and slows down the pace of the game.


(acQu) #77

I am sure stealth doesn’t mean double-jump by saying ‘trick-jumping’. He means basically strafe-jumping, like basically all the ET games so far had and what is among the most fundamental, if not the most fundamental, thing what make ET games feel like ET games. If i understand him correct he wishes for a similar mechanic or generally a mechanic which makes it possible to leverage yourself from the casual players by having mastered that mechanic and which makes movement more deep; ‘tricky’ so to say.

Here is a little tutorial: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-H2bKcKUMs

If you say this is crap, then you probably never played Quake and ET games properly. Not crap at all.


(Nail) #78

you’re talking about a engine glitch that id tech 3 had, that was never meant to be, The movement wasn’t planned, just exploited


(acQu) #79

Yeah, not going into that discussion again, just so much: calling it a ‘gltich’ doesn’t make it a bad thing and needed to remove. Carmack himself said it was a thing he wouldn’t want to fix. If it would have been such a bad gltich, it would have been removed since ever it was discovered and not been incorporated up to idtech4 with Quake Wars.


(Nail) #80

was happy glitch for sure, but pretty much impossible to program in, it was an accident, not a programming choice, big difference. For SD to replicate it with Unreal might take a lot of time and resources they don’t have available