Stoker rework: More versatility and more fun

(DeadAlive) #1

Stoker rework

In his current form, I find him to be the least interesting Merc. I feel that his ability is not only somewhat OP, but also just kind of boring. It needs more versatility, IMO.

At present, Stoker is the last Merc I plan to acquire, and only for ‘collection’ purposes. I have zero interest in playing him in his current form. FTR, I did play him briefly during free rotation.

Here are my suggested changes.

  1. As he is a fire specialist, give him reduced damage when moving through enemy Stoker fire, at least 50% less. This will mean that enemy teams cannot completely ignore a fire patch because a Stoker could come through and make it to an objective or do some other damage.

At present, the fire patch is a total no-go zone, outside of hopping over a corner.

  1. 3 (three) Phase cocktail, affecting size, duration and cooldown. Damage is unchanged. Cooldown can be of the single use type, i.e., once triggered, it must completely reset, or can be dynamic, i.e., time/charge based, allowing for more frequent usage.

Personally, I prefer the dynamic charge based cooldown. I’ll give an example at the end.

Keybind, trigger and UI:

The current keybind will be used, and will function as a timer split into 3 parts. To access phases 2 and 3, the key must be held down for a period of time. Either a horizontal meter with 3 colors and a number can be used to indicate the phase, or, the character can count on one hand like Fragger does.

Phase 1:

This can be accessed by simply tapping the key, but it can also be held down so long as the timer does not extend into Phase 2.

Function:

  • AoE: 20% of current
  • Duration: About 2 seconds
  • Cooldown: 7 to 12 seconds

Phase 2:

This is accessed by holding down the key until the meter (or hand count) shows it has exnteded into Phase 2 range, and can continue to be held down so long as the timer does not extend into Phase 3.

Function:

  • AoE: 40-50% of current
  • Duration: About 3.5 to 5 seconds
  • Cooldown: 18 to 25 seconds

Phase 3:

This is accessed by holding down the key until the meter (or hand count) shows it has exnteded into Phase 3 range, and can continue to be held down indefinitley (if the current grenade can be primed indefinitely, if not, then use the current maximum setting)

Function:

AoE: 70% to 85% of current
Duration: 6 to 8 seconds
Cooldown: 30 to 35 seconds

Dynamic charge based cooldown example

With a standard cooldown, after tossing a grenade, the entire timer must countdown before another grenade of any Phase can be tossed.

But with a charge based timer, as soon as enough charge is built up for a Phase 1 or 2, it can be tossed without waiting for a full reset. Essentially, the cooldown timer would be split into 3 sections. So one could toss a Phase 3, and then 7 to 12 seconds later, toss a Phase 1, if desired.

The dynamic timer is much more fun, plain and simple.

I believe this will be much more fun to play, and also slightly less annoying on the upper end effects.

The 3rd phase has reduced impact compared to current but also a reduced cooldown.

Please vote and post your opinions!

(gg2ez) #2

I’m what way is the Molotov OP? It’s practically a Grenade with a cooldown of 40 seconds.

Shouldn’t this be in Merc Discussions?

@Faraleth @Amerika

(streetwiseSailboat) #3

Stoker is already very versatile, almost on par with Skyhammer. The only thing his molotov doesn’t do is destroy the EV reliably.

As for fun, I wouldn’t really want to have to prime my grenade if I urgently need the area denial.

(gloomyRequirement) #4

[quote=“streetwiseSailboat;139191”]Stoker is already very versatile, almost on par with Skyhammer. The only thing his molotov doesn’t do is destroy the EV reliably.

As for fun, I wouldn’t really want to have to prime my grenade if I urgently need the area denial.[/quote]

Lol stoker deals massive damage to the EV reliably. The only real thing I dislike about Stoker is that his molotov goes on cd if you cancel holding it(which I don’t really see the point of).

Also molotov really is NOT OP lol, if anything it’s more the opposite. Fragger’s grenade are still way easier to kill with AND have shorter CD(and he has both more hp and better weapons).

(Sorotia) #5

[quote=“gloomyRequirement;139269”][quote=“streetwiseSailboat;139191”]Stoker is already very versatile, almost on par with Skyhammer. The only thing his molotov doesn’t do is destroy the EV reliably.

As for fun, I wouldn’t really want to have to prime my grenade if I urgently need the area denial.[/quote]

Lol stoker deals massive damage to the EV reliably. The only real thing I dislike about Stoker is that his molotov goes on cd if you cancel holding it(which I don’t really see the point of).

Also molotov really is NOT OP lol, if anything it’s more the opposite. Fragger’s grenade are still way easier to kill with AND have shorter CD(and he has both more hp and better weapons).[/quote]

Massive? I wouldn’t say anywhere near massive…would take multiple molotovs to take down a EV where one well placed airstrike is more than enough.

Can’t say I’m a huge fan of this, logically how is one to control the burn or how much burn without physically mixing the concoction before her tosses it?

From a pure game play point of view, what if I need the full AoE but don’t have the time to cook it…if I want phase 3 I imagine it would take a while to cook…not going to get any denial with phase 1…not going to have time for phase 3 with a team pushing…or if I do…those seconds I have to cook are lost gun time…which could make or break the confrontation.

(Reddeadcap) #6

Stoker does some damage on the EV, but not massive, say about 15% if you score a direct hit and the enemy team doesn’t find a way to push it without getting on the fire, That said there are Mercs that obviously are made to be more effective at this. What you can do with molotoving the EV is damage enemies around it and force them away from it, it can also burn the gunner to death.

Why is it hard for people to realize that Stoker’s Molotov should be seen as less of a grenade and more as an airstrike like that of other fire supports, his cooldown is massive for a grenade but isn’t as such, for an airstrike and comes in second behind Arty and his 2 charges at 15 seconds each. Stoker’s main focus is that he can use his airstrike effectively indoors.
Unlike Skyhammer who can at most do 100 damage if the enemy is right ontop of his marker if it’s tossed indoors and Arty and Kira who can’t even use their abilities for obvious reasons.
If it had the cooldown of a grenade, by the time a patch of fire cleared up, stoker would toss another grenade 17 seconds, Stoker would toss out another molotov in about 7 seconds.

As for the Molotov going on cooldown when you swap to something else, this is applied to any grenade like ability item although it was mainly created to fight against players putting away a frag grenade when trying to cook it and seeing no one is around.
That said, it is only on cooldown for 4 seconds if put away

Impact damage is about 80 damage and that’s not adding the 20 damage for every half second of being on his fire, that said a big bonus of Stoker’s molotov is that they offer area denial, making the enemy team wait for a route to clear from a molotov’s fire or go another way, both leaving them vulnerable to a counter attack if Stoker’s teammates cooperate accordingly.

(CCP115) #7

The only problem with Stoker is how damn good he is.

Just change the way the molotov works and he’ll be fine, currently chunking HP is stupid and illogical.

(Reddeadcap) #8

[quote=“CCP115;139392”]The only problem with Stoker is how damn good he is.

Just change the way the molotov works and he’ll be fine, currently chunking HP is stupid and illogical.[/quote]

Maybe SD will introduce a merc that tosses toxic grenades that drain health quickly and lingers on the players after a while?
Maybe even a Flamethrower merc?

(XavienX) #9

Stoker’s completely fine. In fact it’s one of the few actually balanced mercs in this game that people don’t really complain about.

(Reddeadcap) #10

True, mostly the “I hate dying due to him just tossing a grenade at me out of surprise”

The other time I’ve heard someone complain was when I tossed it at 5 people, 2 died on impact, 2 when the fire spread out and surpringly the only person who did complain was the guy who ran into the fire not expecting it to do so much damage, as Aura.

(watsyurdeal) #11

My only real issue is how often people panic throw molotovs, add an arm time to them so they can’t be used in close quarters easily, but mid range and long range are fair game.

(illogicalBaguette) #12

with model you are suggesting imagine how friggishly often stoker would in a faceoff just chug a phase one at your phase and t-bag you after instead of the 40 seconds?

(JJMAJR) #13

Stoker rework: give him SMGs (not the Blishlock) instead of battle/assault rifles, make his ammo station into a supply drop that only works indoors instead.

Straightforward and simple. Other FS mercs can now be used underground again.

(gg2ez) #14

[quote=“JJMAJR;139499”]Stoker rework: give him SMGs (not the Blishlock) instead of battle/assault rifles, make his ammo station into a supply drop that only works indoors instead.

Straightforward and simple. Other FS mercs can now be used underground again.[/quote]

Dood, in all 5 times you’ve brought up that idea - no one likes it. Why the f*ck would anyone want to only be able to drop ammo outside?

Your only reasoning behind that idea is because Stoker can use his ability indoors and other FS characters can’t. You’re forgetting the fact that the Molotov is nowhere near as powerful as any other FS ability.

(DeadAlive) #15

Ok, based on the feedback so far, let me make some adjustments to the idea:

  1. I initially suggested that damage would remain the same, even though I personally would prefer it reduced proportionally for each phase, because I assumed that would be a huge complaint from people. But it seems the complaint is the opposite so let me suggest:

Phase 1: 50% dpm (of current)
Phase 2: 75% dpm
Phase 3: Unchanged

I certainly agree that the Phase 1 grenade should not be seen as OP compared to Fragger, so adjust accordingly.

  1. As to the concern of ‘cook time’ to select the phase, this could be an option in keybinds to let players select their preference:

  • Allow reordering of the sequence, e.g., a player could set it so Phase 3 is first and therefore just a tap like now, or even 3,1,2 if that 's what they like

  • It could also optionally have 3 separate binds so you could instantly tap which phase you want, with no delays, and for those who have no interest in a particular phase, they could just choose not to bind it.

FTR, I guess I failed to post the ‘cook’ times for each Phase. In my mind, I envisioned about 3/4 seconds each to pass through the first two phases, so, not very long.

As always, dislikes of the idea over the exact specs that I laid out can simply be remedied by adjusting those specs. If you think Phase 1 would work with reduced damage and a shorter cooldown, feel free to suggest that, or whatever you like.

[quote=“Redcap;139453”]Maybe SD will introduce a merc that tosses toxic grenades that drain health quickly and lingers on the players after a while?
Maybe even a Flamethrower merc?[/quote]

A lot of games have something like this and they are very fun, whether it’s a grenade or a dart, I personally love residual damage weapons. That’s a great suggestion! Of course, before they put that Merc in, they need to nerf Sparks’ OP medi gun sniping…I’m really getting sick of getting OSOK’d by that thing. I run from Sparks’ fire more than I do anyone else…it’s that ridiculous.

Well, at least in game chat, I see plenty of complaints about it, I would say more than other Mercs. I mean, Skyhammer and Arty spam can get completely insane many times and I won’t see a single complaint, but I will somewhat routinely see a gripe about Stoker.

The biggest thing for me is that it’s a full 10 seconds of area denial. It may not have the damage or range of an airstrike, but it is the only weapon where you will see a group of teammates literally standing around waiting for 10 seconds like it’s a coffee break or something. It’s not the end of the world, but in my view, it’s just… lame, and I refuse to play him.

On the upside, 10 seconds is enough time for me to grab my sandwhich and take a bite, and chug a drink.

BTW, I don’t think anyone has commented on idea #1 in the OP, regarding reduced fire damage to enemy Stoker’s, allowing them to potentially pass through enemy fire patches. This is something that TF2’s Pyro has. She takes reduced residual damage from other Pyro’s due to wearing fire retardant gear.