State of Play: Modes, Movement, Mercs, & More


(BAMFana) #121

As an avid strafe spammer, I have no issues with SD reducing its efficacy. I agree with just about everything Anti’s said so far. My experience with strafejuking gives me a huge advantage over most players, but it can’t be denied that it comes with a lot of potential issues, particularly for new players coming from modern games where strafejuking is unheard of.

I do want to point out one statement I disagree with, though:

While I agree that its effect on gameplay is greater than its skill depth warrants, I think you’re underestimating the nuances of strafejuking in a ranged vs. ranged weapon situation (ranged vs. melee is different matter entirely, though). Different situations have different strafe timings/patterns that are more effective (while it may seem random, it isn’t truly random) and “knowing” (muscle memory) when to use which is one of the skills that separate the amazing players from the good. Add to that the difficulty of maintaining tracking while strafejuking, even more so against another strafejuker, there is a bit of depth to it, and definitely not something anyone can do well. Nonetheless, I still agree with the rest of your argument and your conclusion.

What I’d like to see: Reduced efficacy of strafejuking (it should still be a viable movement mechanic in combat, but it shouldn’t be the be-all and end-all movement mechanic in combat), improved walljumping mechanics and the introduction of other similarly predictable movement mechanics. Strafejuking is by far the most effective movement pattern against hitscan weapons because it’s almost entirely unpredictable, but that also makes it less interesting than tradeoff based predictable movement mechanics, such as bunnyhopping (not saying bunnyhopping should be added to the game, but it is the quintessential example of a tradeoff based predictable movement mechanic).

Quote from somewhere else:

To clarify something for people who haven’t necessarily played at a higher level: Once people start to be able to aim properly, jumping is not an evasive advantage against a hitscan machine gun. Practically any form of movement that locks you into a particular path is bad, jump arches can be tracked easily. Bunnyhopping while closing distance is viable as a result of the speed advantage it gives, inspite (not because of) the disadvantage of a more rigid movement path. As i’ve said, the most effective way to dodge an accurate hitscan weapon is randomly mashing left and right, because tracking becomes inpossible, prediction goes out the window, a lot of the skills that players with good aim develop become null and void. If you increase skulk base movement speed and stick with generic forward/back/left/right movement, all that happens is people mash left and right quicker.

The speed boost from moving through the air is the lure that encourages players to adopt this form of movement instead of the brainless alternative that would be adopted if it had no speed advantage. The result is the skulks practice to develop their advanced movement skills, speeding up in the air while intentionally hitting good lines of attack, instead of mashing strafes randomly – and marines develop the aiming skills of reading and tracking skulk trajectory through the air, getting familiar with the curves they’re likely to take to maximise speed and the limits of their air control. This is good for both players, and results in interesting and indepth combat that scales well for both sides.

Again, my point isn’t an argument for bunnyhopping, I just think it would be preferable if we could have more interesting movement mechanics than just strafejuking in combat, preferably ones with a tradeoff between speed and agility.


(Anti) #122

[QUOTE=Ashog;496904]
I have played Quake-based games most of my gaming way and I have to say that moving and dodging is a large chunk of the skill in such games, perhaps on par with aim/track skill[/QUOTE]

Quake dodging is not the same as in ET or ETQW. If you tried the same tricks in Quake you’re going to suffer due to AoE weapons. Dodging in that game (and the likes of UT and Tribes) regularly requires bigger commitments to a direction for slightly longer, before you ‘dodge’.

Anyway, I’ve taken this thread off topic enough, my purpose wasn’t to debate ‘dodging’ or it’s place, it’s kind of in the game now. It was more to give you folks some understanding of what we see is having the most impact on accuracy when we look at the stats and demos.


(titan) #123

Quite an interesting thread to read
my 2 cents:
The fastest characters like proxy, kira and phantom need to have their movement speed reduced just cause they’re way too fast to track properly right now (do they also have smaller hitboxes? feels like it)

I understand what spookify is saying when he says that attacking people from behind doesn’t feel effective enough. It’s probably something to do with the long TTK in this game so when you get an initial back shot in the grand scheme of the fight you only gain a small advantage, meaning 1v2 from behind isn’t a fight you’re gonna win very often. The hitboxes for enemy heads also do feel smaller from behind. I reckon if i jumped into a server to test it I wouldn’t be able to produce video evidence to prove it but i swear you flank someone it’s so hard to open the fight with a free headshot :stuck_out_tongue:

the close quarter combat right now excluding the 2 problems above actually feels quite good to me. Mouse movement feels okay and the spread seems pretty fair at close range. Some fights are over reallyyy quickly though when you get 3 quick headshot dinks within a second which is rly fun to do but not so fun to receive :smiley:

Long range fights are less good though. Most of the maps thus far and horribly small so it hasn’t been toooo much of an issue but having played on greenwhich/dome/map6 (which is really nice btw) it feels like most guns just cant even compete at medium to long range. Assault rifles are okay but smgs on medics for example seemed pretty much useless on that map. So the answer should be to use ironsights but I already did a long thread about that but the tldr version is basically that ironsights cannot track players on this game, so i think a solution still needs to be found for long range combat, be it better sights, bigger hitboxes, lower strafing speed, whatevz


(Bloodbite) #124

I haven’t been keeping up as much as I should… but… one thing I’d like to see starting to be implemented now which is fairly necassry in my view by the end… a try-before-you-buy obstacle course. This is also the kind of map that should be 100% fulfilling for personal calibrations in terms of mouse speed tweakings, bindings, etc.


(RasteRayzeR) #125

+1, this is as much for pub and comp players. I could also be a multiplayer tutorial ?


(Bloodbite) #126

And a beta equalizer. It would help nail down all these movement discussions and map opinions. A free to roam base map that is the foundation for movement and mechanic style… that can be referential for so many things during the current development stage.

I think it would be worthwhile if it incorporates several obstacle/target practice challenges you can initiate by choice into the one map area and is about mechanics and mechanics alone, not game modes. Restrictive hand holding tutorials rarely get used, and too many games absent a test map have people learning in pubs at the expense of others. Just the simple things like weapon use, reload timings and weapon swap delay tactics… like the arty spawn tk decimations in W:ET… or so many other weapon tks from the W:ET days. People tolerated being flamed back then, but in this current golden era of rage quitting… not so much.


(acQu) #127

I can only guess, but my STRONG suggestion is, since there was no problem with strafe-speed and the relation to weapon accuracy in ET, something else is wrong in xT, most likely in netcode or in the prediction code or in the spread of the weapons when strafing. Something is just not adjusted right in this regard.


(spookify) #128

Played for a little bit this weekend and I could not stand the game…Crazy bullet spam fest where aiming seems optional. (Oh Yeah and Spawntime and Maps still blow) (No really need for teamwork yet)

SD please make up your mind on what kind of shooter you want… Hip fire is crazy annoying and when I try to use the better Ironsights;… well I just plan suck at these terrible ironsights without add-ons.

You have said before that ironsights should be used for farther away targets but mid range hip fire battles blow.

AS soon as you add a RED DOT or 3.4x scope to this game everyone will use ironsight!!! Its going to be BF with a longer TTK and no vehicles…

People joked about 2015 open Beta but at this pace it’s no joke… I mean ITS MAY ALREADY!!!


(RasteRayzeR) #129

[QUOTE=spookify;497311]Played for a little bit this weekend and I could not stand the game…Crazy bullet spam fest where aiming seems optional. (Oh Yeah and Spawntime and Maps still blow) (No really need for teamwork yet)

SD please make up your mind on what kind of shooter you want… Hip fire is crazy annoying and when I try to use the better Ironsights;… well I just plan suck at these terrible ironsights without add-ons.

You have said before that ironsights should be used for farther away targets but mid range hip fire battles blow.

AS soon as you add a RED DOT or 3.4x scope to this game everyone will use ironsight!!! Its going to be BF with a longer TTK and no vehicles…

People joked about 2015 open Beta but at this pace it’s no joke… I mean ITS MAY ALREADY!!![/QUOTE]

Why did you join the closed beta ? I mean you are clearly expecting a finished product already, not a game in development. Also putting half of your post in uppercase won’t make it happen any faster either.

Aiming is all but optional, if anything the last patch made it a bit harder to achieve but aimers still win by far over people shooting sparingly as you suggest. Then if you get caught in a storm of bullets, maybe it’s because you are playing solo and encountered a team that works as one. I really don’t understand why you say that teamwork is not required in XT. From all my experience you cannot win a game without proper teamplay (people supporting, people filling their jobs). Teamwork pretty much decides who wins provided there are roughly balanced teams.

Then the hipfire is very accurate, even from mid range. It’s what gives freedom and fast pace to the game. The iron sight increase the accuracy at the price of reduced movement and tactical awareness, if you use it from close range ofc it won’t work out well for you. It’s not meant to be used like this. Also the iron sights have not even been brought into the game yet, they will be balanced to be an advantage only from farther distances.

Concerning the maps, why would you think they are any better if there has not been any update on them ? Also why would it matter if the game actually came out in 2015 ? I think it would be the best thing that could happen as they get more time to finish it.


(spookify) #130

[QUOTE=RasteRayzeR;497321]Why did you join the closed beta ? I mean you are clearly expecting a finished product already, not a game in development. Also putting half of your post in uppercase won’t make it happen any faster either.

Aiming is all but optional, if anything the last patch made it a bit harder to achieve but aimers still win by far over people shooting sparingly as you suggest. Then if you get caught in a storm of bullets, maybe it’s because you are playing solo and encountered a team that works as one. I really don’t understand why you say that teamwork is not required in XT. From all my experience you cannot win a game without proper teamplay (people supporting, people filling their jobs). Teamwork pretty much decides who wins provided there are roughly balanced teams.

Then the hipfire is very accurate, even from mid range. It’s what gives freedom and fast pace to the game. The iron sight increase the accuracy at the price of reduced movement and tactical awareness, if you use it from close range ofc it won’t work out well for you. It’s not meant to be used like this. Also the iron sights have not even been brought into the game yet, they will be balanced to be an advantage only from farther distances.

Concerning the maps, why would you think they are any better if there has not been any update on them ? Also why would it matter if the game actually came out in 2015 ? I think it would be the best thing that could happen as they get more time to finish it.[/QUOTE]

Its been 2 years and it feels like aim has gotten worse or laggy’er or something…

The rest of your statement is false if you give a person a red dot with the iron-sight spread reduction they will win at mid range vs hip fire.

The rlrlrlr was a huge talking point on one of the threads. The spread increase or something is to great when you are bouncing off walls and rlrlrl and a person will bring up their red dot and 4 or 5 dink someone.

This is all IMO but as the game sits if add-ons are added next patch they will be used 80% of the time. Hip fire will only be for close or up to 13 meters away. Anything over 13 meters or around 15 yards is pointless because of lrlrllr and spread and speed.

As of right now you can still more with ironsights up right?

Ironsight, Tap crouch, Tap Left, Tap shoot, Tap crouch, Tap Left, Tap shoot, Tap crouch, Tap Left, Tap shoot, Tap crouch, Tap Left, Tap shoot, Tap crouch, Tap Left, Tap shoot, Tap crouch, Tap Left, Tap shoot, Tap crouch, Tap Left, Tap shoot, Tap crouch, Tap Left, Tap shoot, Tap crouch, Tap Left, Tap shoot… ACE!

Also half my comment was not in caps. If you don’t include the start of a sentence it would only be like 1.5% of overall characters in the post verse the whole post.


(Glottis-3D) #131

something is clearly not very well with hits.
things got better this year.
but i think that the combination of

-netcode (prediction of the enemies by server or client)
-spread
-FPS drops (and overly low FPS due to bad computer in my case)


(RasteRayzeR) #132

[QUOTE=spookify;497326]
The rest of your statement is false if you give a person a red dot with the iron-sight spread reduction they will win at mid range vs hip fire. [/QUOTE]

Red dot -> movement speed impairment. You become an easy target. I really doubt people will use iron-sights unless they are at long range. Simply because you cannot see all around you and also cannot react quickly enough if you are getting flanked. So Iron Sights won’t prevail in this game unless you are far away, in which case your targets can take cover quickly. Also the designs of the maps don’t promote much long range firing. Maybe some pub will use them at closer ranges, but mid range fights will profit to the player with the best mobility imo.


(spookify) #133

I like your statement but have to disagree :wink:

With a clear red dot and the lower Spread with slight recoil advantage of iron-sights I think a person will draw down on the mouse and HS and Kill people before they can even start to strafe… The more powerful guns will be insta deaths from 13m to 20m… I am talking about good head hunters here and seeing the enemy first.

As I have said before in an example 1m fight I was camping a box and popped out (Strafed out) right on the persons head and didnt insta kill them! I was like wtf my Left Strafe knocked my spread out that much taking 1 or 2 steps!

Phoenix with red dot at 16m will 13 Headshot someone in 1.3 seconds I think it will be super OP.

Basically what I am saying is when SD adds these Add-on they might need to re-think hip fire…
Some people are really really good at default Iron sights! And those players stick out right now. Once you get add-on’s that will bring another group on players up a skill level just because that is how they are used to aiming.
(I am horrible and I mean HORRIBLE at default Iron-sights) But I am amazing at red dot and 3.4x… And scoping every fight might be an OP play style just saying…

Another example is some one crouched 3.4x scoped at a person wall jumping and shooting at them. That enemies spread is so great with all the extra crap he is pulling off that there is no way he can get close enough before getting mowed down by a crouched 3.4x scoped friendly.

The addition of Scopes will also make redeye and that one shot LT (Whats his name crap!) (ARTY! There it is) much more powerful as when they are iron-sighted they are deadly accurate.


(RasteRayzeR) #134

[QUOTE=spookify;497336]I like your statement but have to disagree :wink:

With a clear red dot and the lower Spread with slight recoil advantage of iron-sights I think a person will draw down on the mouse and HS and Kill people before they can even start to strafe… The more powerful guns will be insta deaths from 13m to 20m… I am talking about good head hunters here and seeing the enemy first.

As I have said before in an example 1m fight I was camping a box and popped out (Strafed out) right on the persons head and didnt insta kill them! I was like wtf my Left Strafe knocked my spread out that much taking 1 or 2 steps!

Phoenix with red dot at 16m will 13 Headshot someone in 1.3 seconds I think it will be super OP.

Basically what I am saying is when SD adds these Add-on they might need to re-think hip fire…
Some people are really really good at default Iron sights! And those players stick out right now. Once you get add-on’s that will bring another group on players up a skill level just because that is how they are used to aiming.
(I am horrible and I mean HORRIBLE at default Iron-sights) But I am amazing at red dot and 3.4x… And scoping every fight might be an OP play style just saying…

Another example is some one crouched 3.4x scoped at a person wall jumping and shooting at them. That enemies spread is so great with all the extra crap he is pulling off that there is no way he can get close enough before getting mowed down by a crouched 3.4x scoped friendly.

The addition of Scopes will also make redeye and that one shot LT (Whats his name crap!) (ARTY! There it is) much more powerful as when they are iron-sighted they are deadly accurate.[/QUOTE]

The game you describe doesn’t look fun at all. It’s basically first sees first kills, with very low TTK. Also I don’t find it acceptable that people become better just because they are using Iron Sights. It shouldn’t be the case because then you get advantages by purchasing stuff -> contradicts the economical model.

Imo all guns will be balanced so that you change the distribution of perks of a gun, but not it’s output power. This is a fair model. What’s the point of having a game where you get one shot without knowing where it comes from ? That’s for camping kiddos who need ego boosts, not for people expecting something in the vein of W:ET and ET:QW. Btw, look at the scopes of ET:QW: reduced speed for being granted a better accuracy. How curious :tongue:


(spookify) #135

[QUOTE=RasteRayzeR;497338]The game you describe doesn’t look fun at all. It’s basically first sees first kills, with very low TTK. Also I don’t find it acceptable that people become better just because they are using Iron Sights. It shouldn’t be the case because then you get advantages by purchasing stuff -> contradicts the economical model.

Imo all guns will be balanced so that you change the distribution of perks of a gun, but not it’s output power. This is a fair model. What’s the point of having a game where you get one shot without knowing where it comes from ? That’s for camping kiddos who need ego boosts, not for people expecting something in the vein of W:ET and ET:QW. Btw, look at the scopes of ET:QW: reduced speed for being granted a better accuracy. How curious :tongue:[/QUOTE]

Right on Brother!!!

With add-on’s we will go away from ET and into the COD realm. (Especially with the High ROF) (High ROF and Highly accurate Iron-sights with compensateble recoil = Boom Dead)

Smooth, I think you need to reward crouch even more or a lot more! 15m shoots are still clunky…

Also the max spread time. A 2 step strafe shouldnt max out my spread. I should be like a 10 stepped or the way I like to think of it was half a clip fight continuously. rlrlrllrlr shouldnt max it out after the first r and L haha!

New Command = Prone + Jump/crouch and your person does the worm! haha!


(RasteRayzeR) #136

[QUOTE=spookify;497340]Right on Brother!!!

With add-on’s we will go away from ET and into the COD realm. (Especially with the High ROF) (High ROF and Highly accurate Iron-sights with compensateble recoil = Boom Dead)

Smooth, I think you need to reward crouch even more or a lot more! 15m shoots are still clunky…

Also the max spread time. A 2 step strafe shouldnt max out my spread. I should be like a 10 stepped or the way I like to think of it was half a clip fight continuously. rlrlrllrlr shouldnt max it out after the first r and L haha!

New Command = Prone + Jump/crouch and your person does the worm! haha![/QUOTE]

and you think it’s good that XT goes in the realm of CoD ??? Honestly it sounds aweful


(spookify) #137

No, I am with you it sounds terrible!

ET brought me here and the thought of another game play style of Stop Watch. When I say Iron-Sights I was like WTF and my 2 friends asked for their money back but I stuck it out. Lucky you guys hahahahah!


(acQu) #138

[QUOTE=krokodealer;497331]something is clearly not very well with hits.
things got better this year.
but i think that the combination of

-netcode (prediction of the enemies by server or client)
-spread
-FPS drops (and overly low FPS due to bad computer in my case)[/QUOTE]

This. As long as this is not standing on solid grounds, the discussions about TTK are pretty much useless, because this affects EVERYTHING of the feeling about a well-designed TTK (especially the netcode).

But i also said that above :slight_smile:

Yeah, i have no clue if it is UE engine or not, but as a spectator, i think this is one of the many many core problems (gameplay related, and not overall setting/theme-related). And i don’t know if it can be even fixed, since it may be just the engine not performing so well, and i don’t know if SD can modify engine code on their own without hurting some kind of license or anything …


(Anti) #139

Do any of you have a video of this bad hit behavior in action? A match where you felt it was happening?


(RasteRayzeR) #140

Not sure if related, but usually just before I die, if I manage to get a headshot it beeps like one, but then the enemy suffered no damage. I think there is a general lag in hit registration, unless it is specific to the case where I die just after it. I have plenty videos of this if needed