State of Play - Maps, maps, maps!


(Exedore) #21

[QUOTE=PixelTwitch;505597]This single line is exactly what I did not what to hear…
Its effectively patching a fundamental problem with nothing more then duck tape.
ie, match starts feeling repetitive? don’t worry, mess around with random mercs! FUN![/quote]
That really wasn’t the intention of that statement, it’s more that Merc selection combined with different geometry should loosen or tighten defensive holds. We don’t want random messing around or meaningless Merc selection.

I’d consider these things under the umbrella of game modes rather than maps, which this post wasn’t about. It doesn’t mean that such things are not being considered.


(k0k0nat) #22

Ye… sounds promising like always, we gonna see what really happens…
I hope we will see major updates more frequently and progress in maps and matchmaking soon.

When I was reading the the topic I really hoped to see new maps and more diversity.

We did this because mechanically it was identical to other objectives, and we’re making a concerted effort to avoid prolonged “stand in one spot looking at another spot” interactions.

I hope this doesn’t mean we get more capture zones, because this basically is what you just wrote here.


(Wack_McJaffers) #23

[QUOTE=PixelTwitch;505597]This single line is exactly what I did not what to hear…
Its effectively patching a fundamental problem with nothing more then duck tape.
ie, match starts feeling repetitive? don’t worry, mess around with random mercs! FUN!

Sure I want you to remove the 3 merc rule of public server browser matches, I just really hoped we was going to see a push towards drafting in matchmaking…
[/QUOTE]

Hi PixelTwitch, just to elaborate on Exedore’s point… what we mean by “challenging players to react with different characters” is that different areas of the map and different tactical situations will suit different Mercs e.g. One area might present more sniping opportunities whereas as players move onto another area of the map shotguns and mines becomes more useful, as the map tightens.

This is not just a function of the maps though, for example if the enemy team has set up a nice little nest, just out of sight, with healing and ammo stations then at this point Mercs like Nader or Arty come into their own and can clear those deployables.

So the goal is that the maps do not feel the same at each point / area and do not favour all tactics, weapons and Mercs equally at all points; and that repeated battles on the same map do not feel repetitive since you need to respond to dynamic enemy tactics.

So picking the right Merc for the right moment and area becomes important.

As for drafting, this is something we discuss a lot internally and it may well make an appearance in certain modes of play in future (TBD).

I do hope you stick with Dirty Bomb, I for one have enjoyed the content you’ve been putting out and your contributions to the community, I know I’m not alone in that!


(ailmanki) #24

It sounds great, looking forward to the updated maps and there iterations.
Good luck - I wish


(prophett) #25

With regard to improving maps, I hope there are significant improvements, more space, and additional routes, and not just a constructable MG dropped into a map like in the White Chapel picture (band-aids).

My thoughts on the first part of bridge is that it would be nice to have some sort of sewer passage with a gate that needs to be TNT’d. Having it lead to the apartments at the top of the main street where the defenders spawn would make for a nice flanking route (this area is not available for sw or obj modes, but was opened up in the execution mode).

Seeing some screenshots of the progress would be nice as well, as inferno mentioned.


(xdc) #26

I agree with what pretty much what was said,

maps should be unique, create new routes, wall jumping etc, maps shouldn’t be too open or wide/narrow,
increase the height distance two enemies can be from each other (the vertical distance is small in this game), there are no roof tops, but this is a reason to wall jump (to not receive fall damage)

improvements to all maps would be a great update, this plus higher air control


(Seanza) #27

I’m glad that you’re considering making changes to existing maps. From previous posts, it kind of seemed that the maps we have now are pretty much them close to their finished form, that worried me.

From a personal experience, I feel maps need to have the same ebb and flow of Salvage from ET:QW. That game had really good timings from spawn to objective and when you lost the forward spawn in the compound which made you spawn all the way back at the laser, it really felt like a loss - exactly how losing a capturable spawn should feel like.

My biggest concern with maps is that it’s not clear the direction you want to take the game in, so different mercs will act differently on each map. The MOBA-like aspect that you are seemingly going for will not suit map variety (hence why MOBA titles have one map).


(INF3RN0) #28

Merc based strategy is highly undeveloped or even applicable atm, but there are some occasional situations where it works to an extent (usually involving smokes or a rhino). The idea of having it become more integrated into the maps is really great imo. I think the issue is that the merc development has been a bit erratic and the maps/spawns conflict with the concept. At the moment competitive teams use similar archetype variations in their strats, but there’s rarely much variation in how the games actual pan out in terms of merc vs merc. The few scenarios where I’ll pick a specific merc for a specific situation/map is what I’d like to see across the board, but in the current state it tends to feel like abilities and unique merc based strategies were not designed to cooperate with the maps.


(spookify) #29

5 sniper vs 5 snipers haahahaha! Stalemate crap…

FYI I still can not play this game! It crashes right after loading - Right before the NDA “OK” pops up…


(Toomic) #30

[QUOTE=spookify;505631]5 sniper vs 5 snipers haahahaha! Stalemate crap…

FYI I still can not play this game! It crashes right after loading - Right before the NDA “OK” pops up…[/QUOTE]

Make a post on the bugs section including your log & dmp files and we’ll take a look!


(PixelTwitch) #31

same happens for me… its because we hit level 60


(spookify) #32

That’s Epic! We are awesome! Toots his own Horn

Toots Pix’s horn and gets smacked haha! :rolleyes:

Now fix it :wink: please

Is it like the auto cut off that you play to much hahahahaha


(Humate) #33

I think it would be a good idea to remove the respawn penalty and even add a respawn count in the stats, to encourage more players to broaden their playstyle. I’d imagine if you put a great emphasis on stats and medals within your game, and you penelise a player for respawning, they will not be inclined to constantly switch mercs to adapt to the battlefield.

Also the III act analogy in a nice one, as long as each act doesnt feel like its own movie. Momentum needs to carry through from the first two acts.
Seanza mentioned Salvage from etqw. This is a good example. You team-down, plant, push toward second obj before the charge blows… and you have a oppressor with tac shield and a constructor ready to go before the mining laser drops. Two acts, one movie.


(INF3RN0) #34

Dear god… I’m pretty close. Gotta find a way to stunt my XP per min.


(onYn) #35

Well, I guess that´s a post (or at least the kind of a post) many of us were waiting here for a long time. At least it shows what you are working on, what you plan, and helps us to think about what kind of feedback may be actually of any help.

But besides the kinda generic stuff (that I actually still apreciate!) I really want to ask you: Will some small changes, some additional routes and/or some tactical options as well as changed up objective types, give the game the space it needs to be played to it´s fullest potential? I honestly see most of the topics you mentioned, very cosmetic and while sounding really good probably only taking care of the issue on the surface.

I can´t get rid of the feeling, that the map design in itself is trying too much to fit the theme of “london”, being kinda realistic (urban feeling, with small streets, many buildings etc.) as well as artistic and scripted towards specific tactics etc. For me it feels like there is no room for the game to breathe, for people to develop there own strategies, and by that creating a “meta” that is outside of what originally was intended, keeps changing with time and by that is unpredictable and giving the people who enjoy playing the game some long time motivation.

Even tho there are some other ways to implement this kind of feeling of “flexibility” into the game (like adding a draftish mode, character customization/development, etc.) the easiest, most fun and for an FPS ultimately most important way of doing so, is by a proper map design that allows various game mechanics to be applied for different reasons and having different beneficial or negative effects on the actual game. That´s also why I think that every different approach then improving the maps, won´t do any good for the game, and be at best some minor cosmetics most people will get bored of after some hours and in the end just a waste of time.


SLIGHTLY OFF-TOPIC

PS: Since I am talking about various tactics and ways to apply game mechanics (since I feel like that´s exactly what the current maps doesn´t allow us to do) I would like to point two things out that are slightly off topic, but would help a little to solve the core issues of the maps we experience (while still not being enough to make it better without further map adjustments of course).

  1. Strafe/Trickjumping - I know why you never wanted to implement it, but is it really so much harder to understand then wall jumping? And don´t you think that it would make it so much easier for you to implement additional and maybe “sneaky” routes to increase the diversity of possible tactics?

  2. Class specific objectives - Again, I know and understand that you want everyone who purchased a Merc to be able to use it straight away and as much as he wants, but don´t you think that you are hurting a newbies experience, as well as those of the experienced players that play organized scrims?
    I personally remember when I played the first objective based games, and how overloaded I felt with information and action that was going on. And I was so happy to pick the objective class, and just tried to do the objective. I still died often without realizing what exactly killed me, and I understood that I was the sacrificial lamb while my team mates where hammering away on the enemies, but damn I was a rookie, and I could play a role you would expect from a rookie to fulfill. And it felt very rewarding, to still be useful, while playing on a server with people who out skilled me by a lot.
    On the other side, when I became more experienced and even organized my own team, I realized how important my team composition was. There were many ways to do an objective. Killing the enemy and just doing the objective wasn´t the only way to do it. Because of this, teams could specialize on different tactics, while other teams could plan and execute appropriate counter tactics. It added an insane amount of depth to the game, and you experienced it not only while preparing various tactics, but also during the game, when you had to decide within split seconds how to react to a given situation. I honestly understand that many people will not be able to understand this, and there are so many possible situations that I can´t even think off how to start explaining them in more detail. But I am pretty sure, that this is one of the reasons for why (at least the organized scrims! and of course not as big of a reason as the map design itself is) feel very repetitive and unrewarding to play or watch. I also understand that mercs may allow simillar team composition and a larger diversity of tactics - but still, why would you cut out the even bigger diversity, that then probably would grow exponentially?

Those are just two notes I think really are making us experience the current issue of the maps even more. Please understand, that I know that these are basically things that existed in old SD games, but that´s exactly why I think that they are easy to implement, because you (SD) already know them so well and they are proven to be not interfering with the objective focused game type. Also they deliver a nice benchmark, and allow us to compare them to different changes in the core game mechanics. If there isn´t something that actually adds ADDITIONAL value to the game, there is no reason to leave them behind I think. And even tho alone they won´t really make the game better, paired with proper mad adjustments (that should come before you change anything of the gameplay), they would give the game some new styles of play and things to explore. And this are the probably biggest missing factors, that actually make most people who tryed out the game, run away after some hours of play…

All of this of course is useless and doesn´t need to be considered, when the maps are actually generating all the value this game needs to be enjoyable. It is up to you, if you think that you can do it just by improving the maps.


(Exedore) #36

Cosmetic is not at all the word I’d be using for these changes… honestly, you won’t find me ever speaking about aesthetic changes much. These are changes at the layout level.

There’s a degree of truth in this, as early in the project one of the key goals was to replicate the feel of London better than any game had done previously. The team did a great job of it, but the gameplay did suffer for that. I do think this is less of an issue now, as we’re focusing on iterating blockouts and making sure that the gameplay is the most important thing.


(onYn) #37

Now that I think about it, “cosmetics” isn´t the right word for it. Since english isn´t my mother tongue I sometimes just can´t find the right words for what I mean, sorry about that.

What I wanted to say is that I (and most others as well I think) am afraid of possible changes not being “deep” enough to really change things up enough. But I guess I should wait for it and take a look at it first, before actually judging it. I really developed some unpleasant patterns in my behavior…

Thy for still replying :slight_smile:


(k0k0nat) #38

Thats one of the biggest issues I have with the game/maps in general. Not enough diversity.
They nearly all look the same and somehow the contaminated london is made of of yellow and grey containers.

Again, almost every FPS offers a wide range from snow-dust-jungle-mediterranean-asian Maps.
I just gave away 2 of my beta-keys to close friends and beside from the major issues “movement-aiming-spawntimes” they thought the game was very monotone.

I mean even games like “SKILL” offer this wide range of maps.
http://en.skill.gameforge.com/game/maps


(Loffy) #39

Thanks for the excellent update Exedore and others. Really looking forward to all this and I am eager to test it all. When do you think it will start coming?


(BomBaKlaK) #40

In a “not to distant futur” ? Am I right ?
but we need to wait a week ? a month ? a year ?