Sprint and Shoot

spookify · 2013-04-30 19:12:41 UTC

If I unbind Sprint my double pressing and nothing happening will go away… I might but have to do that… Nothing worse then your gun not firing when you want it too

INF3RN0 · 2013-04-30 19:37:31 UTC

When you guys say “run away party” you do realize that you can also sprint after them while shooting and kill them right. You can still already run away anyways… you just don’t shoot back lol. Actually not being able to sprint shoot does way more to allow people to run away than without it. What you be afraid of guys? The ability to perform erratic movement just raises the skill cap for aiming and makes movement itself an important skill to practice.

Since it’s just a discussion at this point also, who is to say that sprint stamina can’t be adjusted to allow for map travel to begin with. Perhaps it recharges fairly quick, but once you empty it you can’t use it again until it fully recharges? That would of course have people stop sprinting before it would hit 0, but in the midst of an intense fire fight that’s a lot to manage anyway. I think we can figure out means of making it completely non-intrusive, but right now the biggest argument I see against it is the map travel.

Dragonji · 2013-04-30 19:50:27 UTC

As I said, there’s no big difference (at least for me) if sprint + shoot is allowed or not, I (and the most of the people) will get used to the final implementation over time anyway.

spookify · 2013-05-01 14:00:21 UTC

Whats SD’s take on this whole situation and idea’s?

Protekt1 · 2013-05-01 15:57:43 UTC

Perhaps instead of straight up letting you sprint + shoot, allow sprint to let you strafe and run backwards faster (not as fast as running forward). Have absolutely no delay between ending sprint + firing. This way you could sprint strafe and fire without penalty to having just sprinted. It would add a timing element to firing your shots and getting back into sprint immediately.

I’m finding it hard to explain this concept and I think it would play out better than I explained. It would have to be almost seamless, being able to fire right from sprint would be essential as would being able to go back into sprint (little to no delay between ending sprint + firing etc.). They could even make it so sprint does not stop but merely your movement speed slows down to regular run speed while you fire, but this may just make it too easy. This may require a stamina bar since it could potentially completely replace regular movement. The other thing that this depends on is how they change the TTK and how much spread you have while firing + sprinting.

Hundopercent · 2013-05-01 16:33:47 UTC

[QUOTE=INF3RN0;443860]When you guys say “run away party” you do realize that you can also sprint after them while shooting and kill them right. You can still already run away anyways… you just don’t shoot back lol. Actually not being able to sprint shoot does way more to allow people to run away than without it. What you be afraid of guys? The ability to perform erratic movement just raises the skill cap for aiming and makes movement itself an important skill to practice.

Since it’s just a discussion at this point also, who is to say that sprint stamina can’t be adjusted to allow for map travel to begin with. Perhaps it recharges fairly quick, but once you empty it you can’t use it again until it fully recharges? That would of course have people stop sprinting before it would hit 0, but in the midst of an intense fire fight that’s a lot to manage anyway. I think we can figure out means of making it completely non-intrusive, but right now the biggest argument I see against it is the map travel.[/QUOTE]

Not at all. What happens is erratic movement takes priority over aiming and you end up sprafing erratically with your opponent. Edit: It will also further isolate your casual players from your comp players.

I think the RoF should be lowered first, which will allow for longer strafe patterns and then we see how the game feels.

Winnie · 2013-05-01 19:31:04 UTC

totally agree, and + 1 for sprinting + reloading

Rex · 2013-05-01 20:22:58 UTC

Sorry but that’s nonsense what you just wrote. You only say this, because you never faced a team who used it.
It rather lowers the skill cap, because your opponent doesn’t want the 1on1. Also you can’t just leave your position to hunt one runaway without the risk to break the whole defence.

prophett · 2013-05-01 20:42:54 UTC

[QUOTE=Rex;443988]
It rather lowers the skill cap, because your opponent doesn’t want the 1on1.[/QUOTE]

Sprinting and shooting would lower the skill cap? I am sorry, but what you just wrote in nonsense…

@Strych: lowering the rof would be a good idea to test.

INF3RN0 · 2013-05-01 20:44:10 UTC

[QUOTE=Rex;443988]Sorry but that’s nonsense what you just wrote. You only say this, because you never faced a team who used it.
It rather lowers the skill cap, because your opponent doesn’t want the 1on1. Also you can’t just leave your position to hunt one runaway without the risk to break the whole defence.[/QUOTE]

The only nonsense is saying that sprint+shoot makes it easier to run away. You can already run away sprinting as is and it’s unlimited. Sprint+shoot lets you chase down a player running away. Maybe now you see why what your arguing is extremely hypocritical, unless you think players should not be allowed to sprint while being shot? Are you saying you want players to not be able to sprint while being shot like the previous patches that slow you down??? If not then please think about the bigger picture before saying something is nonsense when it is obviously not, and state clearly exactly what you want. Sprint+shoot is not going to make the running away any different than it already is derp. A stamina bar on top of that would make it even more difficult to escape in most cases. So again… what you are basically saying is that you want players to be slowed to a walk when taking damage, which if I remember correctly you did not like before.

[QUOTE=strychzilla;443963]Not at all. What happens is erratic movement takes priority over aiming and you end up sprafing erratically with your opponent. Edit: It will also further isolate your casual players from your comp players.

I think the RoF should be lowered first, which will allow for longer strafe patterns and then we see how the game feels.[/QUOTE]

What is aiming? You try and keep your dot on a target with your mouse. Erratic movement makes it harder to aim, but it’s not like it interferes with the action of aiming. Erratic movement makes aim prediction less reliable, which in turn increases the requirement of reflex aim versus prediction aim. The two scenarios are : (1) a player moving from side to side at the same speed (2) a player moving from side to side at varying speeds. Obviously the 2nd scenario is going to require you to truly aim, where the first gives a lot more leeway towards shooting in the general direction that the player is moving and just swiping your mouse at a memorized speed. I really really dislike that, especially with how easy it is to just shoot in the general strafe pattern of someone and kill them- to me that’s fake aim. We already try to move around as much as possible to avoid being shot, so more control over movement itself seems to just build upon an already important aspect. Sprint shooting makes movement itself more meaningful because now you can make it even more difficult for an opponent to track you, but it’s a completely separate entity and aiming itself is entirely unaffected in importance; if anything it becomes more important.

Yes it would separate players even more in terms of who was better at dodging as well as tracking erratic moving players. I think that’s a good thing myself, and since we are already forced to track aim sprinting players (w/ unlimited sprint) the main difference would be that duels would involve sprinting at times as well. There could even be a fair spread multiplier while shooting in sprint, but again it’s adding more of what Toka likes to call “depth” to the movement within fire fights.

I agree that RoF will change the dynamics of duels, however I want that change by default. I still consider sprint shooting to be a hugely attractive feature for increasing the skill requirement and non-repetitiveness (dare I say enjoyment!) of duels.

spookify · 2013-05-01 20:53:01 UTC

[QUOTE=Rex;443988]Sorry but that’s nonsense what you just wrote. You only say this, because you never faced a team who used it.
It rather lowers the skill cap, because your opponent doesn’t want the 1on1. Also you can’t just leave your position to hunt one runaway without the risk to break the whole defence.[/QUOTE]

So you like camping games? Crouch and Shoot? Stationary fixed Crosshair? Now thats is no skill. Running away or not people are still going to play the same. You have sprint too run after them and shoot them in the back… Easiest way to kill someone is when they are not shooting at you.

Sprint shoot would add more skill and tracking to the game. I dont understand why people are so worried about people running away and their precious kills. I had a guy mad at me in a DB pub because I was taking his kills? Really? If you havent played ET or RTCW this is an odd concept I think for a lot of people. Try it, its called not dieing and it is very important in SW game play… Camper, packer, medic hor, runner, hider, no skill wont face me, /killer and many more but who is really the better player and or team make once you master that with teamwork…

This is a totally different game then COD and BF3 and many other its not just run in and die and see how many kills you can get.

Sprinting + Shooting (Especially Reloading) IMO is very important in SW game play…

Note: Once Spawn waves are like ET and continues and displayed wait and see how mad people get when you kill out right in the middle of their fire fight… I also do not agree with the person getting an assist in the manor either especially in SW mode. They didn’t assist in nothing… TDM yes I would agree.

INF3RN0 · 2013-05-01 21:13:44 UTC

[QUOTE=spookify;444000]
I also do not agree with the person getting an assist in the manor either especially in SW mode. They didn’t assist in nothing… TDM yes I would agree.[/QUOTE]

Random side note for the thread, but how does slash killing giving a person a kill effect the outcome of the game? Your ego might hurt in the moment, but you can always explain why they were lucky to even get the kill award after you win the game anyway lol- if it’s truly important to your self-confidence.

Protekt1 · 2013-05-01 23:00:19 UTC

If you’re worried about aiming being too easy maybe add recoil to the guns in both hip and ads modes. Especially to the smg, thing has pretty much no recoil at all making it kinda too easy to use.

More than anything I think a longer ttk is necessary. That should come first before adding anything like sprint + shoot. And I assume you mean for sprint strafe and/or backpedal as well?

INF3RN0 · 2013-05-01 23:36:25 UTC

[QUOTE=Protekt1;444023]
More than anything I think a longer ttk is necessary. That should come first before adding anything like sprint + shoot. And I assume you mean for sprint strafe and/or backpedal as well?[/QUOTE]

An interesting question to bring up. I just was going for the directions that sprint already works in, which I believe is just forward and slight angles.

Hundopercent · 2013-05-02 03:59:45 UTC

[QUOTE=INF3RN0;443998]The only nonsense is saying that sprint+shoot makes it easier to run away. You can already run away sprinting as is and it’s unlimited. Sprint+shoot lets you chase down a player running away. Maybe now you see why what your arguing is extremely hypocritical, unless you think players should not be allowed to sprint while being shot? Are you saying you want players to not be able to sprint while being shot like the previous patches that slow you down??? If not then please think about the bigger picture before saying something is nonsense when it is obviously not, and state clearly exactly what you want. Sprint+shoot is not going to make the running away any different than it already is derp. A stamina bar on top of that would make it even more difficult to escape in most cases. So again… what you are basically saying is that you want players to be slowed to a walk when taking damage, which if I remember correctly you did not like before.

What is aiming? You try and keep your dot on a target with your mouse. Erratic movement makes it harder to aim, but it’s not like it interferes with the action of aiming. Erratic movement makes aim prediction less reliable, which in turn increases the requirement of reflex aim versus prediction aim. The two scenarios are : (1) a player moving from side to side at the same speed (2) a player moving from side to side at varying speeds. Obviously the 2nd scenario is going to require you to truly aim, where the first gives a lot more leeway towards shooting in the general direction that the player is moving and just swiping your mouse at a memorized speed. I really really dislike that, especially with how easy it is to just shoot in the general strafe pattern of someone and kill them- to me that’s fake aim. We already try to move around as much as possible to avoid being shot, so more control over movement itself seems to just build upon an already important aspect. Sprint shooting makes movement itself more meaningful because now you can make it even more difficult for an opponent to track you, but it’s a completely separate entity and aiming itself is entirely unaffected in importance; if anything it becomes more important.

Yes it would separate players even more in terms of who was better at dodging as well as tracking erratic moving players. I think that’s a good thing myself, and since we are already forced to track aim sprinting players (w/ unlimited sprint) the main difference would be that duels would involve sprinting at times as well. There could even be a fair spread multiplier while shooting in sprint, but again it’s adding more of what Toka likes to call “depth” to the movement within fire fights.

I agree that RoF will change the dynamics of duels, however I want that change by default. I still consider sprint shooting to be a hugely attractive feature for increasing the skill requirement and non-repetitiveness (dare I say enjoyment!) of duels.[/QUOTE]

Sprinting and shooting does not add depth, if you add more spread while sprinting you’re adding randomness (and more spray), randomness is the polar opposite of skill. With all the suggestions made to reduce spread you are now suggesting to increase it for the sake of erratic movement to supplement your poor aim. Even if you did add sprint shooting, which again I am open to testing but not 100% all in, nothing much would really change. Instead of people aiming or fake aiming, whatever you want to call it, we will just match your strafe pattern and then not need to move our wrist at all. After all is said and done the only thing you have really done is alienated your casual players and they either

A.) Get frustrated with the movement before being able to adapt

or

B.) Not have the skill level capable to play with the increased “difficulty” or what I like to call Fake difficulty.

I believe the intent is to attract and retain as many players as possible. A large community will bring a large income and that ultimately is the goal of this game for Splash Damage (I don’t say that negatively.)

I played RtCW for many years and I was also used to sprint shooting. I still don’t believe it’s necessary in DB nor will it make DB any more successful. I actually believe it would have a negative impact on new or more casual players and that’s not worth it to appease a few hundred veterans from older games. If they really wanted to make the old veterans happy, sprint shooting isn’t the direction they need to go. They need to give us more freedom on the maps, like being able to jump on ledges, hedges, windows etc. That adds a lot more to a game than erratic movement.

I’m also not in favor of a stamina bar without strafe jumping to counter the slower movement when you have no stamina. That would slow the gameplay down dramatically.

INF3RN0 · 2013-05-02 04:38:26 UTC

Hahaha why are you taking it so personally? And no I don’t think that sprint shooting should be extremely random if it got implemented because then no one would use it anyway… still your acting like that would ruin your experience when your killing everyone who is sprint shooting and your not? That doesn’t really make sense. The skill comes from being able to track erratic movement while reducing your spread via a slower stance.

Things to keep in mind with how the spread changes already:

Standing
Crouching (maybe)
Walking
Running
Jumping

Adding sprint to the list would not be that difficult to balance out and is definitely not that crazy (it’s sprint not a jetpack). I could easily argue to just have a single stance with a fixed spread at all times for the game with what your saying.

If anything sprint shooting could be on par with jump shooting. Your gladly sacrificing some spread for dodging/unpredictability. Stances are pretty easy to understand in terms of how they alter speed and spread, and sprinting is a stance after all. So technically if your aim is near perfect you will always be able to kill someone before they can kill you by having the slower movement stance. When someone claims “bunny hopping in a duel is gay” it’s their own fault that they can’t aim at an erratic target when they have the spread advantage. Those that can will always win, always.

Now yea the only valid thing so far against sprint shooting is that it would require a stamina bar, which then would make it so you can’t sprint all over the place infinitely between shooting. It could easily be adjusted in a way that didn’t feel terrible I’m sure, since it has been done before. But wouldn’t the slow travel be more of a problem to do with dead travel space on maps though? It seems a bit backwards to have unlimited sprint just so you can run a longer distance faster.

Also in terms of “slowing down the game pace”. You move slower out of sprint already and cannot sprint while shooting, thus the entire combat experience will always be slower. If the issue of travel times was addressed with a stamina bar in play, the solution would be very simple. Move the spawns closer to obj areas, or even better add forward spawns to utilize the empty travel space that you need sprint to get through. If that issue was fixed then the game would be inherently faster overall and sprinting would be something you thought about instead of just a button you held down between shooting people.

Nail · 2013-05-02 05:39:06 UTC

not a fan of shooting while sprinting, rather have unlimited sprint than one more bar in my HUD to get in the way

Hundopercent · 2013-05-02 05:57:56 UTC

[QUOTE=INF3RN0;444064]Hahaha why are you taking it so personally? And no I don’t think that sprint shooting should be extremely random if it got implemented because then no one would use it anyway… still your acting like that would ruin your experience when your killing everyone who is sprint shooting and your not? That doesn’t really make sense. The skill comes from being able to track erratic movement while reducing your spread via a slower stance.

Things to keep in mind with how the spread changes already:

Standing
Crouching (maybe)
Walking
Running
Jumping

Adding sprint to the list would not be that difficult to balance out and is definitely not that crazy (it’s sprint not a jetpack). I could easily argue to just have a single stance with a fixed spread at all times for the game with what your saying.

If anything sprint shooting could be on par with jump shooting. Your gladly sacrificing some spread for dodging/unpredictability. Stances are pretty easy to understand in terms of how they alter speed and spread, and sprinting is a stance after all. So technically if your aim is near perfect you will always be able to kill someone before they can kill you by having the slower movement stance. When someone claims “bunny hopping in a duel is gay” it’s their own fault that they can’t aim at an erratic target when they have the spread advantage. Those that can will always win, always.

Now yea the only valid thing so far against sprint shooting is that it would require a stamina bar, which then would make it so you can’t sprint all over the place infinitely between shooting. It could easily be adjusted in a way that didn’t feel terrible I’m sure, since it has been done before. But wouldn’t the slow travel be more of a problem to do with dead travel space on maps though? It seems a bit backwards to have unlimited sprint just so you can run a longer distance faster.

Also in terms of “slowing down the game pace”. You move slower out of sprint already and cannot sprint while shooting, thus the entire combat experience will always be slower. If the issue of travel times was addressed with a stamina bar in play, the solution would be very simple. Move the spawns closer to obj areas, or even better add forward spawns to utilize the empty travel space that you need sprint to get through. If that issue was fixed then the game would be inherently faster overall and sprinting would be something you thought about instead of just a button you held down between shooting people.[/QUOTE]

Ok. .

MrEd · 2013-05-02 13:02:07 UTC

imo:

Stamina bars are silly.
Sprint + fire is silly.
Sprint + reload - undecided.

Generally I feel sprint is an action which forces the player to make a choice over fight or flight. Those decisions provide a tactical layer over pure aiming which I believe to be a good thing for long term depth.

tokamak · 2013-05-02 13:17:29 UTC

It’s tempting to mentally remove a limitation in the game and then see yourself perform all kinds of incredible actions. You, you alone sprinting through the map head-shotting everyone in their face before they know what hits them. Very appealing. It’s so easy to forget that once you do that, everyone will be doing it. Gameplay will be simplified and suddenly the game is about lightning fast twitch-shots rather than about using your movement and accuracy skills to drive your tactical schemes.