Splash Damage, any plans to talk to the game's top players?


(mti_) #41

[QUOTE=spookify;537185]I truly believe it is!

If you make strong detailed posts with suggestions, Ideas and Why they will find it.[/QUOTE]

I do believe they are quite aware of whats going on here. Currently it feels like they are a little reluctant to share their thoughts (on this platform at least) unless someone makes a post that promts a response, be it updates on progress, correction of misinformation or even damage control.
I like my beta games to clearly state whats in the pipeline and what may or may not be comming. Currently it might be too obvious (and they said it plenty of times too) that AC and MM are a major focus but some sort of roadmap would still be nice.
Maybe there is something that the community can do. The closest we got so far is Pixeltwitch’s list which I would like to see updated and maybe sticked if it becomes a major source of updates on how its going. Without the “dev post” function it would be pretty much impossible to keep track of whats happening.


(ARTiER) #42

potty and co.? :smiley:


(spookify) #43

[QUOTE=mti_;537189]I do believe they are quite aware of whats going on here. Currently it feels like they are a little reluctant to share their thoughts (on this platform at least) unless someone makes a post that promts a response, be it updates on progress, correction of misinformation or even damage control.
I like my beta games to clearly state whats in the pipeline and what may or may not be comming. Currently it might be too obvious (and they said it plenty of times too) that AC and MM are a major focus but some sort of roadmap would still be nice.
Maybe there is something that the community can do. The closest we got so far is Pixeltwitch’s list which I would like to see updated and maybe sticked if it becomes a major source of updates on how its going. Without the “dev post” function it would be pretty much impossible to keep track of whats happening.[/QUOTE]

Totally agree.

I also agree we are sort of stuck right now with the big things you mentioned. AC, maps and bugs are really putting all hands on deck for SD. And you know what they will say is these things take time. I have been in the game for almost 3 years and things I have said or SD has said are finally making it into the game.

Pixel’s list is awesome! I hope you are right :wink:


(Loki.) #44

O, thats- thats, not a good sign…


(INF3RN0) #45

I think the community tends to agree on a lot of issues, the solutions are just different. I do think there are key points that can help absolve the problem areas faster. For example, reducing RNG, enforcing skill consistency, scaling mercs better across the skill gap, having more dynamic abilities, etc just to name a few. People of all skill levels usually highlight the problems, but it usually takes too long to find the right solutions. The main reason why I think an SDK will have a hugely positive impact on the game is because mass trial and error helps to uncover the best solutions quickly and saves a lot of time and money for the devs; which is typically the reason why it takes so long to get there.


(ToonBE) #46

[QUOTE=Anti;537178]Not sure any of us said that anywhere, but I’ll post my thoughts again here to be clear.

We like public play and need public players. We like comp play because a lot of us used to compete in clans (some still do). We want balance that will work well for both because we feel it benefits both and we don’t want to make two games.[/QUOTE]

This is the problem imo. You won’t satisfy the public player (who will move to something else) and you won’t satisfy the competitive players (who will just leave and complain).

This is now happening.

Just decide what you want to be: e-sport/competitive or casual/public.


(Kroad) #47

[QUOTE=ToonBE;537202]This is the problem imo. You won’t satisfy the public player (who will move to something else) and you won’t satisfy the competitive players (who will just leave and complain).

This is now happening.

Just decide what you want to be: e-sport/competitive or casual/public.[/QUOTE]

it’s not really about choosing. You can’t balance for pubs because of the varying skill levels. Most you can do is try and make as many weapons and mercs viable as possible, and this will happen as a side effect of balancing the game for comp play (as making more mercs/weapons viable is one aspect of balancing for it).


(Volcano) #48

if only there was some sort of way to have pub settings and competitive settings, jeez i don’t think such a thing has ever been made. oh well


(chickenNwaffles) #49

I could probably post at least 3 ways to completely overhaul Vassili, but people really don’t seem to care - especially the devs: their methods of balancing snipers include adding randomness to add more ‘depth’ and ‘skill’.

I remember the patch notes where they nerfed the fel-ix by one damage, because they thought it was the “defacto better sniper”. I laughed so hard at that one.

What Tribes Ascend team did you play on m8?


(chickenNwaffles) #50

[QUOTE=Beermachine;537168]Concerning CSGO’s player number growth rate, what a lot of people seem to forget is where those players came from. CSGO on release failed to convert the majority of the playerbase of CS 1.6, and it was only further development and big prize money that got a lot of those players to move over.

CS 1.6 / CSGO are fundementally similar games, with twitch style game mechanics, and appeal to those type of players.

Tracking style games is a much smaller market, but also has MUCH less competition. Personally I can’t see a game trying to appeal to all FPS markets / skill sets being successful given how bloated the FPS market is, and reminds me of Brink with trying to appeal to too many markets and ultimately failing to fully satisfy any of them.

Regarding the OP, while top players undoubtedly have excellent understanding of game mechanics, you have to be weary of possible personal and team agendas (especially where big prize money is involved) to balance changes that arn’t in the games best interest but aimed at meta’ing their competition. Probably not an issue in DB at it’s current development stage though.[/QUOTE]

People also forget that CS:GO was a huge failure on launch, and it was only until the the competitive scene started to switch over and the huge update that added in skins.

Skins literally ****ing saved that game.

Somehow people in this thread think it’s impossible to make a game that caters to both casual and competitive players, while every top esport game is balanced around competitive play (to an extent): CS, league, and dota are all balanced around the highest level of play.

Would you like to know how and why that is possible?

It’s simple, really, you just make one ****ing gamemode for everybody to play; and push that gamemode as the standard - I mean sure, cs has a casual mode and league has aram, but by far, more players play the ‘competitive’ gamemode.

The real trick is to pair up bad players vs bad players, and game balance will almost never mean a thing then, because the only real answer is to simply “get better”.

DB should just abandon Execution - because it’s dumb and a waste of time/money + is was and still is a failure - and should reduce all games to 5v5 matchmaking.

tl:dr: if you make everybody play the same gamemode, then you balancing is easy!

I still don’t believe the whole “hurr durr you can’t only balance for the 0.000001% of players that are the ‘best’ hurr durr!” argument.


(chickenNwaffles) #51

[QUOTE=Anti;537145]I would say in those cases that:

  1. It was something we felt strongly, as the designers, that we wanted our game to have

[/QUOTE]

You guys are ignorant of what aimpunch actually does. It doesn’t add more skill, it simply adds more randomness - I know you have probably heard this about a thousands times, but I ask you think actually think about it! For once!

Players don’t find themselves holding tight angles and waiting for the other player to run around the corner first, because them getting the initial drop grants them the ability to induce aimpunch on the other player.

I have never once found myself actually thinking of using aimpunch to my advantage on players other than snipers; It’s not a mechanic that adds to anything; it, instead, takes away from the core skill of the game that is: aiming.

“positioning, anticipation, reflexes”

Now that is actually laughable.

How can aimpunch add any of those to this game? I mean, like, really? Come on, you guys are making it out like you don’t even play the game. Aimpunch is a mechanic that almost every player in a modern fps will resent completely: cs:go had the worst aimpunch, and there were countless threads about it all the time (same thing with planetside 2 and h1z1). Dirty Bomb is a fast paced shooter that relies on adad et style of strafe aiming. Aimpunch only hurts DB’s gameplay. There isn’t any corner camping, or really hard angle holding like in cs, it’s just a game where you run around and shoot people (even at the highest level of play; almost every competitive player can agree that there is little “strategy” that goes into dirtybomb).

Why do you think I want there to be no jumping inaccuracy on weapons? - hint: it’s to add a little more variety to the gunplay (of course, doing this would require tweaks to jumping, so you can’t spam it).

  1. The consensus you believe was there across all of the community was actually across the users in your ‘sphere’ that are vocal. People are twice as likely to post to say they dislike something as they are to post saying it was fine/improved the game

Of course not everybody in the game hates aimpunch - personally it’s not that bad - but you have to decide whether the most vocal people are the ones you want to cater to.

All the people on the forums here are their own little ‘sphere’ and just because most of the other players are indifferent to the things we care about, doesn’t mean that those things don’t deserve attention. How could you possibly say that the people that complained about aimpunch on reddit are the minority? They are just the ones who care enough to complain about it.

How deluded can you be to think that it wasn’t popular opinion that nobody liked aimpunch?

Top post of all time in r/dirtybomb, and if you just sift through the comments you can clearly see that most people dislike aimpunch.

What a suprise!

And, of course people are going to complain about the things they don’t like… lol do you guys want everybody to suck you dick for every good patch note? That’s not something people do; they only post about the bad. If people don’t complain about something, then why change that something?

This is a concept that you guys tend to violate almost every set of patch notes (aimpunch, scope-sway, changing every new merc, even though nobody every complained about them - not once has a merc been released in the same state that the they were in almost a year ago).

  1. Just because it went out in one version doesn’t mean it wont be balanced and tweaked umpteen times after that, but that can take some time to do. You have to bear in mind the process here, a patch goes out, it’s played and we get the immediate feedback, it’s played for another week and then we get the ‘people are used to it now feedback’, if we want to change it we make the changes, test them internally for a week so we ‘get used to it’, put it into QA, they test the build, the next patch eventually comes out. When you iterate 2-3 times that can be a fairly long process before you arrive at the point where most people are happy

Depends on the severity of the issue that was addressed. After you guys released the scope sway patch (which Linkz and I noticed instantly, first thing when I played Vassili that day), you never reduced the scope sway for about say, 1-2 weeks or so. I maybe got used to it, but that doesn’t mean that it was still a sane and goodbalance change; it still needed to be reverted and no amount of affiliation would have changed my opinion of it.

To go back to point one a second you have to understand something. We have to make the game for all our players, we can’t just focus on one section, that doesn’t make economic sense.

If we focused entirely on competitive play with every tweak and update we’d be serving maybe 500 players (100 teams on DirtyCups for the league, five players each, that seems a fair estimate). That is less than 1% of all players that log in each day, less than 0.25% of the unique users that play each week. If that was all we’d focus on this game wouldn’t be able to support itself.

Not to say that some of those suggestions aren’t good for all players, they can be, but it doesn’t mean they all are.

None of this means that we don’t care about the competitive scene or their feedback, we do, because a large number of us have been competitive players in the past. What it means is we can’t always make it our top priority and we have to balance it against what is best for the whole game.

Explain to me how every popular esport caters to both the competitive and casual players alike?

It’s not that hard to make a change to something with both competitive and casual players in mind; ****ing league does it, dota does it, cs does it. Is there something I’m missing? Can a game only have patch notes that cater to the competitive players not have casual players too?

I mean, this would be 100% easier if both casual and competitive players played on the same gamemode.

Also, why does valve invite competitive players to the studio all the time to balance the game then? I know blizzard always talks to the pros and they have one of the best balance teams I have ever seen.

I have yet to see one balance change suggested that would negatively impact the casual scene of the game. Most of those guys barely care about balance, and if they do, they go to reddit to complain about how poor this game’s is. Balancing around the top players, while keeping the casual scene in mind is how you create a well balanced game; as the top competitive players are the ones that know the most about the game (even more than the devs, to an extent).

Use your brain, listen to pixel twitch, and stop doing dumb ****.

It’s 6AM and I"m going to bed you silly ****s. :^)


(Anti) #52

You said it yourself, they all offer other modes, progression systems for casuals, campaigns, tutorials, character selection systems, seasonal events, tribunal, alternate matchmaking systems, loot rewards etc etc. Most would argue LoL actually moved away from eSports balance (compared to HoN and Dota) so even that is casual focused despite the fact it has a big eSports scene.

There are a huge number of elements involved with each of those games that contribute to their overall success across competitive and casual parts of their communities, not just balance.

I know you love eSports, I get it, but making one single element of the make up of a game the absolute cause of all its success is silly, there is way more going on.

We’re going to spend time and effort, just like those games did, to improve balance and features across the board, for all players. That means comp and casual alike.


(Anti) #53

I’m closing this thread now, there was some good discussion at the start but when it gets to the point where people are cussing every three lines then it’s not serving a purpose anymore.

If there are specific suggestions coming out of this then please start new threads for those.


(Smooth) #54

And in closing, it would be a lot easier to take on board certain users opinions if they weren’t quite so ‘ragey’.

We’re very happy to have discussions about things with players but ranting, swearing and abuse not only massively devalues your opinion in the eyes of the developers, it also means your thread will get closed down and your future posts will get ignored.

There are proper ways to discuss things without coming across like so: