Splash Damage, any plans to talk to the game's top players?

[Anti]

I mean an own game mode, that is in therms of gun play&balance based on the “casual” stopwatch mode. But it should support competitive features that make the game more tactical and team play oriented and also support maps that are bigger and offer way more tactical options, and actually require the player to have some map knowledge in order to play them properly. Basically unlike what we have right now with the over protectively polished game towards new players so that they don´t hurt themselves at any time in the game with more emphasis on individual rather then team play.

OK well new, bigger maps specific to comp would definitely not count as “not going to cost too many resources”

[Kroad]

[QUOTE=Anti;537143]I’ll add some points to this.

Personally I talk to lots of ‘pro/top’ players already, if they’re not you or the people you want I’m sorry for that but I can’t talk to everybody
[/QUOTE]
Like I said I’m fine with not being considered a top player, I’m not even on a team atm. I know that you talk to some top players but I don’t think it is enough, as you do not get enough opinions, and I don’t know how active this discussion is (I also thought you were moved off from DB, glad to hear you’re back)

[QUOTE=Anti;537143]
Secondly, when people make posts like this they tend to use the word ‘community’ a lot, “talk to the community more” for example. This is actually incredibly hard to do because this idealized community doesn’t exist. There is no one single voice, one shared opinion, not even in the smaller competitive scene. You actually all disagree with each other more than you think and the only time elements of a consensus seem to appear is when a smaller number of individuals lobby others endlessly over a few weeks. If we were to go on ‘community’ opinion that feedback would probably need to be anonymous via a survey, forums simply involve too much bias and arguing.[/QUOTE]
I agree, people don’t agree on what the game should be like. I know that chicken and I for example want jumping to not reduce accuracy, while I know that adeto and art1er are against this. There are many differing opinions and I am aware of this as I have also talked in depth with other players about possible balancing. But I don’t think this is necessarily a bad thing, I think this sort of discussion among top players (right now only happens in areas where you cannot get any feedback from) is the best way for you to get ideas on how to balance the game, as top players can explain their point of view thanks to game experience, and can often reach an agreement on what would be best for the game - something that does not happen on the current forums.

[QUOTE=Anti;537143]
Lastly, I played in ‘top’ clans in Tribes 2, Tribes Ascend, Call of Duty 1 and ETQW…do I have to be in one for Dirty Bomb as well to understand weapon mechanics? :D[/QUOTE]
I was already aware of your comp background, and while I know that you are by far the best player on the SD dev team, you simply lack organized 5v5 experience, which is surely what the game is designed around.
I actually think that it would be a good idea for you (if you have the time ofc) to try and join some pugs, might give you a different view on what game balance is like in an organized setting.

[Smooth]

I was already aware of your comp background, and while I know that you are by far the best player on the SD dev team

He wishes

[Kroad]

He wishes

i figured that maybe you would listen to me if i just added a couple compliments, you handsome man

[Anti]

[QUOTE=Kroad;537158]

I was already aware of your comp background, and while I know that you are by far the best player on the SD dev team, you simply lack organized 5v5 experience, which is surely what the game is designed around.
I actually think that it would be a good idea for you (if you have the time ofc) to try and join some pugs, might give you a different view on what game balance is like in an organized setting.[/QUOTE]

I play ranked 5v5 with a few clan players at different times, although not a huge amount, so I have some experience. I avoid PUGs because when I occasionally joined them in the dim distant past they tended to turn into private Q&A sessions or people would take the chance to argue about their own personal top complaint…and that’s not really how I prefer to spend my time

I actually get a lot more from watching clan matches than playing them (as my own aging FPS skills don’t get in the way then), as I can then see what is actually happening and how each team behaves. I’ve watched pretty much every streamed cup match of DB so far.

[Nail]

they listen to everyone

cake makes things happen though

[onYn]

OK well new, bigger maps specific to comp would definitely not count as “not going to cost too many resources”

SDK could solve this

… Does this actually mean that we can´t expect to get maps (from SD) like they are being asked for in various threads, videos etc.?

[Beermachine]

Concerning CSGO’s player number growth rate, what a lot of people seem to forget is where those players came from. CSGO on release failed to convert the majority of the playerbase of CS 1.6, and it was only further development and big prize money that got a lot of those players to move over.

CS 1.6 / CSGO are fundementally similar games, with twitch style game mechanics, and appeal to those type of players.

Tracking style games is a much smaller market, but also has MUCH less competition. Personally I can’t see a game trying to appeal to all FPS markets / skill sets being successful given how bloated the FPS market is, and reminds me of Brink with trying to appeal to too many markets and ultimately failing to fully satisfy any of them.

Regarding the OP, while top players undoubtedly have excellent understanding of game mechanics, you have to be weary of possible personal and team agendas (especially where big prize money is involved) to balance changes that arn’t in the games best interest but aimed at meta’ing their competition. Probably not an issue in DB at it’s current development stage though.

[onYn]

Tracking style games is a much smaller market, but also has MUCH less competition.

Just wanted to throw in, that in gaming and niche genres like tracking style games you need to keep in mind the potential market growth.

[Nail]

[QUOTE=onYn;537163]SDK could solve this

… Does this actually mean that we can´t expect to get maps (from SD) like they are being asked for in various threads, videos etc.?[/QUOTE]

UDK is readily available and I believe there is a Community built map in existence (not sure if NDA allows further discussion) but new maps from SD are pretty much guaranteed

[BomBaKlaK]

UDK is readily available and I believe there is a Community built map in existence (not sure if NDA allows further discussion) but new maps from SD are pretty much guaranteed

Waiting for new maps, and maps rework since ages … Any news ?

[mti]

I think you are approaching this the wrong way.
You assume things are mutually exclusive that simply are not.
You say that changes made “for competitive players only” are alienating pub players but I dont see how that would be the case. If you balance a game well it will only benefit it. Dota2 does not gear their balance towards my mother trying to get into video games for the first time. They exclusively look at top tier, meta gameplay and their numbers are every devs/publishers wet dream. CSGO does not grow its community by dumbing it down and alienating the core player base that has been with them for over 10 years. [On a side note, this is how you do it http://www.pcgamer.com/valve-explains-how-csgo-became-the-second-most-played-game-on-steam/ you might not like it but putting money in and promoting it via esports (the people you refuse to listen to cause they are 1%) is what does the trick.]
You have to make it a valid product in its own right and something that might actually attract a specific target audience rather than trying to skim generic shooter players off of other peoples market shares.
Lets be brutally honest here. You will not compete with the big names out there, not even in the f2p market. You are making a niche product(s) that has enough personalty to attract people for what it is itself. That is the only reason you have such a dedicated (and vocal) player base attached to your studio.
This will not work if the product does not have enough character and tries to be “a little bit of everything”. You have to put this idea of taking a bite out of the CoD market share to rest. Trying to mimic a little bit of everything is going to ruin it.
The same holds true for taking “community” feedback: too many cooks spoil the broth. You are experienced game designers and you can see the value (or sometimes short sightedness) in peoples arguments and make informed decisions based on those.
Chasing after this illusionary unified community oppinion and that single one solution that satifsies everyone can only stall progress. Have the guts to implement the things that the core player base is asking for (yes I am asking to listen to us on here over others, deal with it steam forums salt train) to make it the product that people, truely dedicated to your games, want it to be and our numbers will grow. If you aim to satisfy a different type of crowd you will soon realize that they are more than happy to move on the next game that comes along. Overwatch is a real threat and with Blizzards influence/reach you have to be different enough (and polished enough I am sad to say) to not just be the unwanted step child.

However if your numbers and insights suggest that unifying pub and comp balance is not feasible it really is time to talk “DBpro” or even a seperate rule set for these two modes. CSGO sure seems to think its a good idea!
Before I go let me just say that this is not a post about any specific design choices but rather a critique of the overall approach you take to decision making.

[Kroad]

[QUOTE=mti_;537176]
However if your numbers and insights suggest that unifying pub and comp balance is not feasible it really is time to talk “DBpro” or even a seperate rule set for these two modes. CSGO sure seems to think its a good idea!
Before I go let me just say that this is not a post about any specific design choices but rather a critique of the overall approach you take to decision making.[/QUOTE]
Good post, it is definitely possible to make all weapons and mercs viable in pubs and I do believe that it is balancing for comp play that will bring this about, I do not believe that a DBpro is needed nor that promods are good for the community in general, the comp game should be as close to the pub game as possible.

[Anti]

[QUOTE=mti_;537176]
You assume things are mutually exclusive that simply are not.
You say that changes made “for competitive players only” are alienating pub players but I dont see how that would be the case. If you balance a game well it will only benefit it.[/QUOTE]

Not sure any of us said that anywhere, but I’ll post my thoughts again here to be clear.

We like public play and need public players. We like comp play because a lot of us used to compete in clans (some still do). We want balance that will work well for both because we feel it benefits both and we don’t want to make two games.

We are listening to ‘pro’ players, we just don’t always agree with them on everything. Where we do it tends to take a little while to get it in game and then iterate enough until it’s right.

That’s pretty much the summary of it.

I appreciate what Kroad is getting at when he says we should engage more with ‘pros’, maybe we could try a few different things beyond what we’re already doing on that front. At the same time I don’t believe we’re quite as bad at comprehending what comp players are doing as he thinks

[spookify]

Good post, it is definitely possible to make all weapons and mercs viable in pubs and I do believe that it is balancing for comp play that will bring this about, I do not believe that a DBpro is needed nor that promods are good for the community in general, the comp game should be as close to the pub game as possible.

Community, You or Pro’s can all give their two cents on weapon balance in the forums. IMO SD does a pretty good job at listening to everyone and making a informed decision on what they think is best. We are still in a very true “open beta” and things are bound to change.

One of my favorite things to do is make Balance comments or thread that make suggestions on where specific guns can do. I am not sure if SD reads this info or does anything with it but it is my two cents. I try to be very specific with why I want these changes and the feel I currently have.

Remember how we all thought the Blishlok was messed up a few patches ago, but it turned out of be audio fire rates messing with us? IMO the Blishlok is in-need of a few more tweaks and Im sure SD is well aware of that. With that said other guns may also have audio or animation “bugs” or “Timings” that need to be worked out before spread or damage is looked it.

The “bugs” I mention above is causing some major trouble with some guns. The D-AR has a semi-Auto bug that is really making the gun useless. How can you tweak a gun that is bugged? I should say to its final or close to final version.

Anti and Smooth did a great job in explaining what they are doing and the path they are taking to get there. An DBpro is not a solution as you will split the community even more. They have access to data im sure we could only dream about. Heck we dont even have stats or accuracy’s to base comments on. Right now we are basing everything on Feel. I think some of us are better then this then others and you also have to be aware of the audio and other bugs that effect guns.

To the point of this thread “Splash Damage, any plans to talk to the game’s top players?”

• I think they all ready are in some form or any-other. Through Stats collected on them or the forums they are collecting and listening. A lot of Top players are pretty vocal while some are not. This is a long process and some of us have been here for almost 3 years and seen many countless changes and I am sure we will see more.

[alphabeta]

Some of you may not be aware that SD also had a wide-ranging sit down with the entire OCB Clan. They seem to be listening. I think they are really trying to produce a well-rounded game. So let’s give them a little credit.

[mti]

Some of you may not be aware that SD also had a wide-ranging sit down with the entire OCB Clan. They seem to be listening. I think they are really trying to produce a well-rounded game. So let’s give them a little credit.

This must have been before I ever joined up mate. Too bad I missed it.
I am by no means trying to discredit what is going on or disregard the fact that its beta but a beta doesnt turn into a polished game by not discussing and making changes. It must be a frustrating thing to walk this fine line between not taking enough community feedback on board and watering down the experience because you are trying to satisfy too many different people. I do not envy you for that part.
I truely hope that this statement

is still at the core of your design philosophy.

[spookify]

[QUOTE=mti_;537183]This must have been before I ever joined up mate. Too bad I missed it.
I am by no means trying to discredit what is going on or disregard the fact that its beta but a beta doesnt turn into a polished game by not discussing and making changes. It must be a frustrating thing to walk this fine line between not taking enough community feedback on board and watering down the experience because you are trying to satisfy too many different people. I do not envy you for that part.
I truely hope that this statement

is still at the core of your design philosophy.[/QUOTE]

I truly believe it is!

If you make strong detailed posts with suggestions, Ideas and Why they will find it.

[fubar]

[QUOTE=spookify;537185]I truly believe it is!

If you make strong detailed posts with suggestions, Ideas and Why they will find it.[/QUOTE]

Finding it is not an issue. I know for a fact that a few of the developers heavily agreed with my topic, albeit not the suggested “fixes” or “changes”, but definitely agreeing with the problems at hand. Yet they’re still to be addressed. Makes me, and others, rather not want to bother anymore. We know there are problems in the game affecting high and low level play, they know these problems exist, admit to being aware of the problems, yet aren’t tackling them… It discourages us from further trying to give feedback just as much as it does the devs to hear them out. It seems that the only way to get to SD to approach something is by having an entire community (see reddit vs aimpunch, phantom, melee changes, anticheat, etc.) be in uproar about it.

I’ve been sitting on a draft of feedback for about a week now which I’m reluctant to post, simply because it lists the same issues, again and again, and again. They’re just as tired of hearing about it as I am ranting about it. I’ve expanded further onto a few subjects, even illustrated them with clips and other media, but honestly? I just don’t see the point of posting it. It’ll get ignored just as much as the others have been. SD obviously has their prioritization set, if they’re in-line with what the community (especially competitive) want or not is irrelevant. They’ve got their ideas, they’ve got their stuff to work on and above all, it’s still a beta. The best we can do at this point is hope and wait. Hope above all.

[Glottis-3D]

i think that a brainstorming from top players, who realy care about a game is a good thing.
but in order for this to work, it should be a dialog much more than some monologue-sque threads.
I realy hope for this to happen. like it happened to Smooth’s thread about ingame gfx variables and commands. Devs should ask direct and indirect questions more often.