Specialisation and character niches

(Zhou Yu) #1

This is one of the things that was raised in the BrinkGamers interview at questions 6 and 7 that piqued my curiosity.

Specifically its the character advancement/levelling and specialisation stuff. I realise the specific details on this stuff may well not have been ironed out yet or at least are not ready to talk about yet, but bear with me, as its more of a general thought/concern.

As explained in the interview (and as always, this is prone to the vagaries of all interviews everywhere) characters will be able to pump experience points into becoming increasingly niche and specialised. The examples given where making a dedicated soldier or bubba the heavy medic, both of whom had had their exp specifically channelled into soldiering or medicing to make them very strong in those areas.

My concern is that being able to create niche characters like this tends to result (mostly from experience in other games similar to this) in a few issues in terms of gameplay and balance. This is mostly because niche characters like this (and I appreciate there may well also be the option to create well-rounded characters) tend to be the best at their particular class, but at a relative disadvantage playing other classes, making them effectively a one trick pony.

The first of these issues, which was kind of touched upon in the interview, was the idea of swapping out characters. My concern is that, to be competitive in each class, everyone is going to have a separate character for each class thats best-suited (most niche) to that class. I worry that we will end up having a medic character, an engineer character and etc etc, just swapping between them as needed, rather than sticking to one character who is flexible enough to fit in all classes. Of course this is based off certain assumptions about the levelling system/time taken to level/balance of specialisation/ability to swap out characters mid-game, but there is still something about the idea of constantly switching to remain competitive that worries me with its inconstancy.

In any case, if we don’t get the ability to switch out characters mid-game (Rahdo gave the impression it was in no way finalised), then does that mean if we pick our uber-soldier we will be at a disadvantage when we need to switch to engineer for the sake of the team? This would encourage far more static class selection than I would think would be appropriate, based off of assumptions about class mobility in ET-style gameplay.

I fully expect that this is all taken care of/pointless worrying from an ignorant speculator, but I thought I’d raise the point anyway, as just considering it felt like it could be a significant area of eurgh (technical term) in terms of balance and gameplay.

(tokamak) #2

Yeah competitions shouldn’t allow character swaps. I’m not sure if I like the idea either:

  • It kind of breaks the narrative for yourself. In what singleplayer shooter are you able to select another character on the fly? It’s one more reason to grow more attached to your character.
  • Swapping characters becomes part of the tactics, which is likely to distract from the action itself.
  • Selecting characters before you’ve seen the battle is simply more fun,it adds to the randomness. Without it you would get teams that start customizing themselves to the other side. Not being able to swap adds to the uncertainty, you don’t know who’s with you and you don’t know what you’re up against.
  • No uncertainty would eventually lead to ‘Brink tactic guides’ that give the ideal set up against specific builds. “This configuration is good against that configuration, this configuration is good against this configuration” Not really exciting.

I think " one must make shift with what one has" is a good definition here.

but I guess I fall on the ‘hardcore’ side which has no issue with a few sticks instead of carrots. Maybe a compromise of diminishing returns on the swapping could do so it’s only used for desperate measures.

The only advantage I can think off is that it’s one less headache when it comes to balance. Then again, where’s the fun in absolute balance?

(Zhou Yu) #3

What you said about breaking the narrative for yourself is bang on, and what I was groping towards when talking about inconstancy.

That said, its interesting that you go straight for the competitive side, and even look at something like a Guild Wars competitive system with team builds and strategies and counters etc. While I think that might be a really interesting idea for a game to follow through in terms of competitive online shooters, I would agree in saying I’m not sure whether it would be something I’d feel comfortable with in an ET-like environment.

I think its important to point out though that character swapping mid-game is neither confirmed nor denied as of yet, in fact the systems which these concerns revolve around are nowhere near public knowledge (unfortunately), so if I seem a little vague its because I’m essentially speculating about something that isn’t anywhere near concrete :p.

(tokamak) #4

Maybe it could be a server optional setting? Which reminds me, we haven’t heard much about how configurable the servers are yet.

(shirosae) #5

The thing I found odd was the idea of having multiple ‘characters’.

So I get XP, spend it on some general stuff, or some specialised stuff, fine. But why would I possibly need to split my xp grinding up across multiple characters, unless there were limits to what could be given to any one character?

The way I’d (perhaps mistakenly) assumed this would work is that you could unlock anything you wanted to on your account, and then would assign a limited ‘loadout’ of upgrades and abilities and weapons and bodytypes when you spawned, so it’d be much more like unlocking skills in Guild Wars on your account, and then being able to make any PvP character as you saw fit.

This seems much more grindy and persistent and urgh.

On the other hand, mega plus points for the no Windows Live.

(tokamak) #6

The only gameplay reason would be body size. The body size is permanent from the start.

(acidrain) #7

That would suck.

(mortis) #8

Perhaps in SW (or in a comp mod) the character classes could be limited, aka maxsoldiers, maxmedics, etc.

As you can’t select classes in limbo (from what I’ve read) you’d have to include at least one class selection spot per map. It’s the same with weapon loadouts as I understand it. Maybe secondary class alteration points could be turned on/off by a server variable…? If each map had an initial “buy zone” like CS at the initial spawn points it would be fine, IMO.

Changing your body style on the fly doesn’t make much sense at all to me, but being able to change it “out of combat” aka offline should be allowed. One-body-type-per-account would suck if you later found that your current form is lousy for your play style.

(Rahdo) #9

Yup, you can change your body type between matches, but not during. But changing body type (becoming big or small) is basically “just another ability” you can buy for your character (like “interrogate”, “shield”, etc.), so it’s not free to do it. So you do kind of commit to becoming the new body type. However, like all abilities, if you find you don’t like it, you can “sell it back” for a “restocking fee”.

Also, good points, everyone, about the potential for swapping characters mid match being potentially boneheaded in several ways. You’ve given us much food for thought, and I’d almost wager that you’ve pretty handily talked me out of the feature altogether! Just like players in a Magic the Gathering tournament shouldn’t be able to swap decks mid match, it perhaps is totally broken to swap characters. Of course, the tricky part is that if we disallow the easy swapping, players could still drop out of the match completely, load up one of their alt characters, and then try to jump back into the same match, though they do run the risk of losing their spot in the match. But it seems like the potential for this to happen is even worse and more disruptive than just making it easy to go ahead and let them swap within the match.

What do you say to that, smart guys!? :slight_smile:

Also, Shiro, yeah, this isn’t a CoD style thing where you unlock all the perks and then just make several different template characters. These are character you build and put time into, individually, like an MMO. But, to allay your fears of it being too grindy, we do have some plans to make growing 2nd and 3rd and additional character much more streamlined once you’ve built your original guy…

(DarkangelUK) #10

I mentioned that problem on IRC, players quitting to change char then jumping back in again (you should come on IRC :wink:)

It’s a touchy subject, if you impose a reconnect waiting time of say 5mins, then you isolate those that got disconnected for genuine reasons (connection dropped, had to pee, child threw the cat in the washing machine etc). I suppose that could be overcome by allowing an immediate reconnect with the same character, but leaving and trying to connect with a different character to the same server requires a 5min wait period or map change… which ever comes 1st.

(mortis) #11

Make the reconnect delay a server variable. 2 minutes is an eternity in a comp match. The other possibility is a player ID (derived from the unique GUID) that would be unique for each character. Only one registered player ID could play in a match, server would log all player IDs at match start, and disallow any new IDs until the end of the match. Just a thought…

(Zhou Yu) #12

This I’m not sure about this in theory just because otherwise the body type seems separated from the other abilities already. I’d say how that plays is kind of dependent on how the overall system works, especially what the “cost” of changing body type is. It also depends whether you can effectively “fill up” on skills, (X # of talent points as in wow) or whether you can keep buying as long as you have exp. I imagine the second option is kinda out as it would allow some players, with enough playtime, to just be relatively amazing at everything and give no impetus for creating more characters. If you can “fill up” with upgrades to a pre-defined limit, then practically, changing body weight is not something thats going to provide you with a definite advantage (and/or better niche), compared to something else perhaps.

I’d kind of edge towards either not allowing you to change character body weight at all once you have chosen first, as that edges towards an inconstant character, or allowing you to change it at any time for a small fee of exp/money/gold dubloons, as in a service (similar to character renaming in mmos).

[QUOTE=Rahdo;196745]it perhaps is totally broken to swap characters (mid-match).
[/quote]
Its not so much the brokenness that concerns me in this regard, its more the “inconstant” (for want of a better word) feeling of constantly shifting through different characters for you and for everyone else in the match. In fact, the worst thing about that scenario is the route cause - the feel that you need to swap around to be as competitive as possible because your characters are so niche to each class, or conversely the feeling that you can’t swap classes because your main (and perhaps only) character is so niche to your current class.
Specialisation rather than straight advantage is a good thing, but its really going to depend on how the system is implemented as to whether these hugely speculative issues even show up at all, or whether they turn out to be a huge field of eurgh.

I’d say don’t let them rejoin on a different character? ^^ I have no idea how plausible that is, not being a massive techy, but it seems like the common-sense solution if you follow that route and stop character-swapping. People can still disconnect and reconnect for whatever reason, just with the character they first joined the server with.
Trying to stop people playing with the character they want to seems a bit crappy all round however, so I’m not really sure this is the solution in any case. I’m repeating myself (which I know digibob hates :<) but it comes back to that original (entirely speculative on my part!) issue where people feel there is a serious competitive advantage to changing characters in the first place.

p.s. sorry if it seems like I’m being anal retentive, but its been a slow evening :stuck_out_tongue:

(Shiv) #13

How about simply returning them to their previous body type if they try to do the re-connect thing and re-join in under 5 mins…
maybe leave a little message in chat- “your body type has been returned to previous while on this server, you will automatically change to the new body type on map change or server change”
This would need a server with history but many have already.

(organon) #14

The problem with not being able to change classes ingame is, if there is an objective that only a specific class can do. Now, since teams will always be 8 here, this problem is less pronounced here than in ETQW. But it can still become a problem, if all the people that have the necessary class are bad (or bots, as good as they may be). Make it cost something to change class in-game. Don’t know what s the economy in the game. But maybe make it even cost some XP, or give an XP gain % penalty for the rest of the match, that increases with each time you change class.

Changing body type between matches for a fee is best solution IMHO.

All those measures are only effective though, if there is a cooldown (and/or the same penalties on class change) on rejoining the match.

But since players are supposed to be attached to their characters, respecing must be possible, and it must cost less, than starting a new character. Everyone can make mistakes, and you need to experiment.

(Shiv) #15

they have already said you can change class on the fly by going to command points for a small fee, with rewards for doing so if your team needs that class.

not talking about class change, the issue is with wieght class which could potentially be damaging.

(organon) #16

And for that they already have said, that it’s only between matches, and also for a fee. Don’t see any harm with that, as long as that price/penalty is big enough to prevent people from doing that all the time.

(Nail) #17

[QUOTE=Shiv;196757]they have already said you can change class on the fly by going to command points for a small fee, with rewards for doing so if your team needs that class.

not talking about class change, the issue is with wieght class which could potentially be damaging.[/QUOTE]

for comp play you should be able to set the fee to change class higher, maybe much higher, it shouldn’t take too long for the Leagues to figure out the ratio

(deadlights) #18

I am not trying to get off track, and maybe this needs its own post… but I am confused.

Lets say you have one guy. You can’t change his body shape, but you can change his class?

So some one may have a skinny medic, and a fat engie while I have a skinny engie and fat medic?

(Nail) #19

yes, and I think it’s a good idea, makes you think about your overall role instead of what’s convenient for the moment.

me likey lots

(organon) #20

body type ~= races from RPGs, can can only be changed between matches after leveling up using the XP system (doing dieting and running or pumping weights I guess, such things take a while :wink: )
class ~= profession from RPGs, can be changed in the match (just means you pick up a different toolkit)