Spawn trap Waterloo

(Breo) #1

When the defenders fall back at the right time before the wall is destroyed at Waterloo they can surrender the spawn easily, because the attackers have only one way to get to the object. I think there should be at least another route to get out of the chokepoint right after the attackers spawnpoint. Any thoughts about this?

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(ImageOmega) #2

I think this is an awesome part of the map. It is both exciting and intense. If the Defense is aware, they have to either make the call to defend the plant or fall back and set up at this chokepoint.

If the defense fails at defending the plant then they run the risk of getting run over easily at this chokepoint thus allowing the defense through and forcing them to set up at the PDA. If the defense decides to set up at the chokepoint then the attackers have to make a strong push in order to get through, which is tough, but proven time and time again to be completely doable.

This is one of those points in the map that are incredibly fast paced and fun to play. First, you need a good class mixup to ensure that you are doing enough damage to the enemy, have plenty of ammo to allow the defenders to keep fighting, as well as being able to keep the team up w/ health packs and revives. This is the only real chokepoint like this on the map and leads to an extremely wide open ending (which I think is the real flawed part of the map).

So, if anything, I would like to see more opportunities for defenses to hold strong because they are pushing through (not an area where they are nested up). The defense also has to watch enemy that get past that initial clearing, which can easily let the attackers flank defenders that don’t have their head on a swivel or are pre-occupied.

Anyways, thumbs up for this part of Waterloo!

(potty200) #3

A good way in getting around the choke points is by letting them use more ammo. Keep revives up and slowly they HAVE to fall back together or risk losing the PDA section quite quick!

(Evil-Doer) #4

Love this area. Makes stuff extremely exciting. I’d personally want to see more of locations like this. Others may disagree.

This is a type of high risk reward scenario. If it’s coordinated on either offense or defense it can be taken over an also held.

(SockDog) #5

I’ve always felt the spawn stairs need to lead to a doorway that is past the wall barricades on the left of your picture. This would spread the defence or they’d risk people slipping past or flanking them.

The other thing is you should do a little spectating in free roam. There is a lot of tube tunnels around there IIRC. Not sure if these will get opened later or were closed off during earlier testing.

(.Chris.) #6

I’ve never liked this part, it can get really bogged down here, occasionally you may be able to slip by to the side route and ninja complete the controls objective. I guess why we don’t see the defence get many chances to actually hold this position is down to the individual spawn timers so you may not always have enough numbers to hold that area for a significant amount of time.

(Bananas) #7

Would like to see this part be slightly harder for defenders to hold. Maybe add a upstairs window or something. Not sure.

(INF3RN0) #8

This is the only reason why anyone plays outside of the obj area lol on most all maps. It’s really because it’s one of the few viable defensive choke points between objectives lol. I miss that, but it could be done much better here.

(EnderWiggin.DA.) #9

I agree with Breo and I was going to make a similar post. I think there is potential to easily have a reactor/railgun/container city situation the way the map is now. NOT FUN. Yes, the map is Oasis 2.0 but in Oasis after the wall was blown, you could also go the tunnel route or even make the choice to go high or low through the main choke point which did spread the defense out a little more.
Another point I’d like to stress is that a map needs to be somewhat balanced even when the teams aren’t perfectly even in skill. If you rank teams as good/average/bad, I don’t think a GOOD team should be able to lock in an AVERAGE team at spawn and I can see that happening with the current layout. Getting decimated right out of spawn isn’t fun even if there is high risk/reward for using the strategy.

(ImageOmega) #10

You didn’t have fun playing last night during this area of the map? Thought it was a blasty blast! =]

(Humate) #11

I appreciate the fact the defence is rewarded for conceding.
However the risk of going for a defuse is too high, so its a no brainer to fall back.
As attackers , if you want to avoid the spawn trap, you have to spawn trap the defenders at the cost of not capping forward spawn. :wink:

(EnderWiggin.DA.) #12

I enjoyed the night for sure. It was refreshing to play organized again. However, I think the teams were fairly even whether we won or lost. I think it would be fairly easy to lock that section down in a pub if the teams were slightly unbalanced and I think that is bad map balance and bad for game enjoyment. Nothing causes rage quits faster than getting raped right out of spawn.

One of the things I suggested when Inferno was talking about pugs was testing maps with unbalanced teams. I’m not talking scrubs versus elites but more like average versus good. You’re always going to find pub servers with a clan stack or unbalanced teams and while the better team SHOULD win, even the losers should be able to feel like they have a chance, even if slim. The main idea is to avoid situations like on the maps I noted in my previous post. My personal feeling is that getting raped out of spawn causes more rage quits than getting raped if you can run 5-10 seconds out of spawn. It’s psychological imo.

I respect that you like that section and that’s definitely cool with me. My perception is that you are thinking from a competitive perspective. My perspective is to think from something that is good for comp but also good for less organized pub.

(Hundopercent) #13

I’m generally against chokes like this because it creates a frustrating experience for players. Then I was reminded that Lt’s can lob air strikes and that will pretty much make this choke, not as bad as it can be. For this scenario I would say it’s ok since you can push the defense out of position.

There was a similar choke like this on mp_sub for RtCW. The difference was you could avoid it by

Going the alternate route (available after blowing up a wall)
Go through the water canal in the middle for a stealth plant
or have a panzer setup a baller ass shot from the middle of the room (in the water) and take out both defenders for an easy push.

(iwound) #14

I like this point in the level. As long as it can stay as balanced as it is now with more weapons then it will be ok.
Holds are never that long and very risky for defence. They may think they are holding but one attacker usually always slips through unseen.
There are many ways to slip past. But a good old fashioned rampage for a few seconds is usually the way it goes down.

(Breo) #15

The problem is when the attackers spawn is surrendered you are vulnerable for attacks from multiple angles (marked yellow area) which means when you enter that area you will instantly die.

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Only nade spam can clear the area, however it isn’t easy because the defenders can take advantage of the cover (bags stack/walls).
When the defenders have a couple medics/fieldsops they can hold it there easily a few minutes with spawnkilling.

Also the side doorway for the attackers isn’t really helpfull because it leads to the same chokepoint with the open area.

(tokamak) #16

Just like Siwa Oasis indeed.

(Evil-Doer) #17

Just want to throw out there again for the record, I like this area. It can definitely be an issue if there is to much unbalancing going on. Other than that, it’s a great phase to the map.

(Apples) #18

I like it but I think lowering the bags on the left (when you are defenders) can help balancing it, right now you only see just the upper head and its quite hard to shoot someone who is using these covers.

(Evil-Doer) #19

It’s funny you say that Apples, because I actually think they were made higher, they were lower before I believe. And I think they did it to make it a little more difficult for the defenders to head shot over them so easily. Could totally be wrong though :slight_smile: Your right though, because I think you can still head shot at certain angles as defender, but It makes it near impossible on an offensive perspective.

(nailzor) #20

Leave as is, teams that are versed in the map will know how to play it on defense, and thus - how to break it as well.

Choke points are good, I would like to see more of these, maybe maps where there are 2 chokes, an east and a west that must both be covered by defense as the offense can equally choose which to push through - and neither can be left un-manned or an objective may be breached/flag taken.