Spawn time issues... still!

(quickMicrowave) #1

A few months back we had a discussion thread on here regarding how spawn times on Stopwatch mode need to be adjusted, which had pretty good feedback from the replies @ http://forums.dirtybomb.nexon.net/discussion/comment/17265

To summarize it up, the main problem which still exists is:

On Stopwatch the spawntimes on every, single, map… are 25 seconds. This makes no sense at all and especially because the defense and offense ALWAYS spawn at the exact same time.

This leads games to be very predictable as there is no randomness to it, simple as that.

It seems very unlikely that each map was designed around a 25 second spawn time and that each offense/defense side is supposed to spawn at the same time. In games SD had their hands on in the past (RTCW and ET) it was not the case. Offense and defense would spawn at separate times unless RNG was extremely lucky, and each map had spawn times that were appropriate to the level design.

Please, please, please - address this in your next patch!

Edited, changed 24 -> 25 (only noticeable when spectating not really when playing type deal)

(AirborneAsian) #2

All maps are 24 second spawn time. Why would they change it? And we don’t spawn at the same time, I think. I Looked into it myself.

(quickMicrowave) #3

Stopwatch mode = the same spawn times, look again. We are not speaking about Objective mode here, at all.

Secondly, why is 24 25 the magic number, are all maps designed around 24 second spawn times considering the pathing and distances between spawn points and offense/defense areas? I highly doubt it.

Edited, it is 25.

(Jostabeere) #4

[quote=“quickMicrowave;61478”]
Secondly, why is 24 the magic number, are all maps designed around 24 second spawn times considering the pathing and distances between spawn points and offense/defense areas? I highly doubt it.[/quote]

"A game dev team with a high experience who made the game, balanced the game and polished the mechanics in the game isn’t right in their descisions, but I am.

(Gi.Am) #5

Sorry but gotta disagree quite hard on this one.
First of the notion that the maps are not designed with 24 second timers in mind doesn’t hold.
Sure maybe the first iteration wasn’t, but since they have symetrical timers they clearly balanced the maps for it. The objectives and the spawns are placed exactly so that both teams roughly reach them at the same time, with a slight advantage for the defenders, to you know setup a defense, for the attackers to overcome.
If the Echo data indicates that the balancing is not right, SD usually shifts spawns around to help the weaker team just so slightly, which is easy to do since symetrical spawntimers.

Randomness now normaly I’m the guy who defends randomness as a tool to make things more interesting, but this time…

Asymetrical timers are just as easy to predict as a symetrical ones. Atleast at comp level play. Only difference is with symetrical you can look at the ingame timer, with asymetrical you set an external tool (interval timer, there is an app for that) to the enemy spawntime hit go at start and you are set. Only way to prevent that, is by having a random variance to it (spawntimes +/- 5 for example) but that could be done to symetrical timers aswell.

Symetrical timer ensure that spawnwaves always clash at roughly the same time/point. Ensuring that the fight is always around the point of intrest (objective, unless ofcourse one team is considerable stronger and survives wave after wave).
Asymetrical, in contrast means the one with a shorter timer (presumable offence) will cover more ground pressing the enemy out of position after an even trade.

Symetrical timers give the same risk/reward treatment for everyone involved in a fight.
You can do a save attack, that will put you on a short spawn when you loose, but the gain is low, since if you win, the enemy gets a short spawn aswell. Likewise if you do a high risk attack you might put someone into a longspawn, but if you fuck it up you get punished with the same. Adding a low risk/low reward, high risk/ high reward component to firefights.

Asymetrical on the other hand, because the spawntimes are drifting against each other, mean that you will have situations, where you have low risk/ high reward and high risk/low reward situation (on top of everything else).
This is quite important because it generates situations where one team can suicide charge in. Force the other side into longspawns and show up early, because all their loses imidently respawn.

I’m not saying that Asymetrical couldn’t be done. And it obviously has been done, in the past. But it would generate quite a few atleast in my eye undesirable situations and introduce a whole new set of variables, that would need a large round of rebalancing, since bringing it back to the first part. Everything in this game is balanced with the current spawnsystem in mind, wether its spawn points, mapflow, movementspeed, cooldowns, plant/defuse/repair times.

(quickMicrowave) #6

You make some good points so we’ll agree to disagree on the main points, but I do not see how a new set of variables would be a bad thing.

Going into a map and having strategies that you shift according to the spawn times adds a level a complexity, ie; RTCW mp_ice with the spawn times are the same, or when they are 10-12 seconds different changes how you attack and how you defend entirely. Granted, on the ‘pub scene’ it is not reflected, but in organized comp play reaching back to when the game was actually popular - it was a huge factor and great indicator between the CAL-O, M and I teams (now I feel like I’m dating myself with those references!)

Playing from closed Alpha through now, there have been changes to the maps. At first the spawn waves themselves were not even implemented correctly and that has been improved.

I guess my main crutch is… if you look at each map on paper and each different phase - it really feels to me like there should be certain maps where the attackers have 20 second spawn times, and the defense has 30 seconds. Or if we are going to have the exact same spawn times going on - why not a nice round number like 25 or 30 for both sides :wink: **Edited - it is 25.

In other games I have played in the past I am used to having the same spawn TIMES on both sides of the map, ie; attackers and defense both have 30 second spawn times themselves.

But like in SD’s previous game ET, these were randomly generated when the match started.

So for a 15 minute map, your first spawn might be anywhere from 14:30 to 14:59 as soon as the game starts.

Just my 2 cents and cont’d rant as it is a huge center piece for stopwatch games in general, not just SD’s history.

(quickMicrowave) #7

Apologies for any confusion, that is not what I typed but can see how you are easily led to think that. From the previous thread the question of Why? was also asked but we have never received a solid answer from SD.

Not to say I could design a better map at all as my software engineering work is in a completely different field, but SD has not had a huge triumph with map designs since ET. Brink comes to mind.

To round it out, this definitely was not intended to be bashing anyone on the dev team that has worked or is working on this! Again - apologies if it came across that way as “LaudatoryLunch” pointed out - but would like to have it taken into consideration and revisited.

(Dirmagnos) #8

Id prefer personalized spawn timers based on duration of player life, eg those who survive the longest also have longest spawn timers(on per life basis).
With obvious upper and lower limits to those values, so that player who susrvive for 10 minutes wouldnt have to wait for 5 minutes to respawn.
Would also put a small dent on camping.

(quickMicrowave) #9

Yikes! The sniper or medic that is doing a great job at staying alive and not dying would be sad :frowning:

I could absolutely see something that is implemented as a new game type, be interesting.

(quickMicrowave) #10

Apparently it is 25 actually, just when playing it doesnt count down from 25 as you would expect it to, but probably starts at 24.9999999 type deal haha.

(Szakalot) #11

You made a nice summary on why symmetrical is so terrible.

symmetrical:

  • predictable
  • boring
  • repetitive

asymmetrical:

  • dynamic
  • map control
  • tactical

Only surprised you got different conclusions out of it

(Ardez1) #12

I don’t see how asymmetrical is dynamic, because in objective mode the spawns are asymmetrical but still static values.

Also, there are tactical benefits to the timers being the same, just as benefits exist for them being different. If the spawns were asymmetrical it would still just be a matter of find that info and setting up an interval timer like mentioned above.

I believe the problem here is you both have a different definition of asymmetrical.

It feels like Szakalot is including a random variable of time to the spawner when simple asymmetrical is exactly what we have in Objective mode now. No randomness, just different.

(Gi.Am) #13

Oh I’m not saying that generaly speaking symetrical spawntimers are superior. Just that at least in my opinion, they wouldn’t work with what DB currently is.

DB has this constant clashing of waves going on, I can see how this can be boring from time to time (especially if the defenders are better and it is clashing against a wall). But on the other hand, it is high adrenaline all the time.

Everything in the game supports that.

Maps are small and mostly linear, objective clearing times are very fast, and you die fairly quickly.
The additional time, asymetrical timers will generate, would in the context of DB create pretty large openings that allows for uncontested clearings and still born attacker waves.

I could see myself enjoying asymetrical timers, or variable starting times I mean making near spawn Fragger nades harder, would always get my support. But as I said DB would need a very large amount of rebalancing and propably Map changes to support it. I thing workforce is spend better somewhere else.

(Ardez1) #14

I would actually love to see the Attackers getting faster wave spawns in both Stopwatch and Objective. A game should rarely end in a shutout or incomplete map. I would love to see every stopwatch game end with both teams completing all of the objectives but the winning team be determined by who did it best.

(Szakalot) #15

so asymmetrical could mean:

  • different spawn times (20s vs 25s for example)
  • different time of spawning (one team spawning at 00/20/40, another team spawning at 05/25/45)

DB stopwatch, and so competitive as well, have neither. Both teams spawn at the same time, with the same spawn timer.

This makes stopwatch very boring to play. There is one area of the map that is being contested via deathmatch-like engagements. There is no consideration of pushing against enemy spawnwave/counterattacking enemy push, map control, etc.

You spawn and rush in, cause either way its all the same, and if attacker’s eventually wipe the enemy team, they will get the objective done.

Either type of asymmetrical would add a random factor to the map, making it more dynamic; since holding the same choke for 15min might no longer be the most optimal strategy.

Like you said, maps are already damn small, no point in making the area of engagement even smaller by ensuring both teams arrive at the same spot EVERY SINGLE TIME

(ttownjoe) #16

ahhh maps like mp_base, mp_beach, mp_ice, mp_assault, so superior to what we have in DB, such great team dyanmics in rtcw, the maps in this game have way too much junk decorations, and though giving multiple paths its still a bit linear for my preference. It feels like the map designers are trying to hard, and it super annoying in UR engine that you can get stuck walking over a pebble with its poor collision detection.