Some words on melee weapons

[Catnadian]

So I’ve been playing this game for a while with as many different opponents as I could find, and it’s been great fun, with only a minor little niggling in the back of my head about how melee weapons were probably a little too powerful for their own good. Now that the game has taken off, and especially after an update where a new melee weapon is released, I’m a little curious as to what the future is gonna hold for them.

From personal experience, I’ve seen the game go through “give Dave the axe” to “I’m going to buy Madame LaHacque and the axe” to “I saw what that LaHacque guy did so I decided I’d buy three” and it is proving to be more than a little effective unless you decide to mirror these tactics to the best of your ability which seems less turn-based strategy and more “Madame LaHacque’s Punchsport Pro Circuit”, and I can’t really say I like how that sounds past the title.

Im looking for some dev or admin thoughts mainly. There was a topic a while back where the community manager(?) agreed an AP debuff tweak was probably in order for melee weapons - I was curious as to whether there has been any further thought along those lines? Proposed solutions or reasoning why the current two-point cost and current damage output is ideal?

[badman]

That’s a great first post! We’re doing some balancing work on melee weapons and except to have something in the next update.

That said, I’d still like hear everyone’s input on this stuff, now that the game’s been in limited release for a while.

[tinker]

Hey Catnadain.

I totally get your point so far
and tbh I tend to use melees a lot. At least 1 melee per game since i like the squad-point-use of 5 5 4- which often ends at Hoo-Hoo AR x2 and 1 knirly knife - there is not much use for me for the cold automatic since i play quite straight and aggressive.

and tbh- I’ve seen LaHacque once now with lumber numberer and I also wanted to buy her for melee use soon - but mainly because i like stealth - melees and Gadgets ( you couldnt guess that from my name, right? )

but I also reconnized that many openends tend to the use of melee-weapons and tried to adapt
-1. my playstil
-2. my common setups.

The good thing AT THE MOMENTS is: many are not aware of “save positions” yet.
They rush forward with their leightweight units- but do not think so much about a save position.
So it is YET quite easy to push the enemy with Dave and Artillery out of his defense and kill with the 3rd.
The good thing about the tend of leightweights --> heavyweights and BIIQ dmg is even bigger.
use Rambo ( Archie Fletcher) the enemy is in range, either 2x Rocket ~120dmg , 3xHoo-Hah AR ~100-110
use Sneaky Pete with Otto Semi-Auto ( best weapons for him in my opinion) 3x Sniped ~ 90-120 , when forecasted Headshot ~110-140, when forecasted, and even once in that turn ~130-160dmg
Ivan - with the EMP - 18!!! energy the enemy comes close, pushed out of his defense, 4xHoo-Hah AR ~ 150 dmg … when too close or when the enemys are staying closely together -> Grenade (I will not steal you the “wow-moment” when you buy him once and see what EXACTLY his grenade does) and the enemy is rly much slowed down.
Another strategy if you- for yourself- do NOT want to use melees at all - could be a Turtle-strategy.
dependant on less moves on your turn, the backflash aura , and support fire ability.
Imagine a Rambo with Colt Automatic, your Commander with Hoo-Hah AR and anything else with high firepower staying closely together with all nearly full energy.- the enemy attacks and your squad fires back with many many (many) shots.

And thats are just a few of the posibilities.

A huge problem is double-melee. a commander and 2 melee-classes… and THIS should be banned in my opinion
–> only 1 melee in 14squad-points games <–
I can live with it. I sometimes even play it. but it makes games quite fast and simple for the one with double-melee…

Well, as i said i understand your point
but there are many ways to bypass melee-users. Especially those with a Lumber Numberer - although it is hard and somehow also cutting out the possibillity of an Sniper in your team -> when melee is close, you cannot get rid of him…
—> because those with a lumber numberer have 2 weaker classes- with knirly knifes or colt automatics- skip them, close them out, or anything - and its an 2vs3 soon enough what is nearly unbeatable.

although I’m affraid im not a dev or admin I hope you are prepared to face melee-weapons somehow even more/better.

with friendly regards
tinker

[EL-CO]

I totally agree with Catnadain. As you can win by keeping the central area, short range weapons have some advantages. If one quickly moves into the central area with melee weapons and keeps covers cleverly with healing ability, the opponent have no choice other than step into the area knowing that the unit will be killed instantly. This problem is significant at Train station with 20/26 pts squad.
For Madame LaHacque, I also think that her ghost ability is too powerful with melee weapons. It’s almost impossible to know where she is for her wide movement range. She can easily eliminate one unit from outside of captain’s detection aura. In addition, she has powerful UAV. I think Kate and Madame are two most powerful units in the game. (btw, I found that engineers cannot repair her UAV. Is this what you intended?)
So, I would suggest 1. AP debuf for melee weapons 10-20%, which will keep melee weapons still efficient enough / 2. restrict heavy melee weapons (more than 5 squad points) only to commando (and engineer, maybe). LaHacque with Katana is still powerful, and it’s a bit funny to imagine that agent yielding big hammer (or chainsaw) hiding behind the wall.
It’s just my thought, but I think melee weapons are bit overpowered, especially with LaHacque.

[Crozzton]

Totally agree with this. After being annihilated quite a few times by stealthed sneakys Pete’s with melee weapons I went for 3 ladies with melee and a kate with a sub m gun. It quickly turned the tide. At least until the mirror matches. Then it is up to placing gadgets and revalations better than the opponent. Play mostly 14 pts now and am trying out different stuff. Melee is IMO less powerful here against an opponent at same lvl but then again I get stuck with 15+ inactive opponents called jdhjxhdjd or similar. Played a few of you and got pwned by EL-CO mainly because he was smarter but the lvl 32 commander skill was pretty nasty as well.
Maybe different play modes within the catagories could help finding better match up. Maxes out lvl against maxed out. No duplicate weapons and/or chars or something like that.

[tinker]

Sry guys, but it seems like i have to argue on a more… personal level…

with my last post i gave many examples of how to avoid getting owned by melee weapons.

And sorry to say that but you play TOTALLY wrong if you loose vs melee over and over again.

I DO NOT want to pose about. I do not want to show off, how good or awesome I am BUT

The game is ALL about technik, thinking 1 turn ahead ( bcs you cannot think more then 1 turn ahead since the openent has about 1million[ somewhat between 100(midweight)x150(lighweight)x80(heavyweight) ] different options of placing his characters PER TURN)

And it is NOT about melee weapons at all. as i said, i do NOT want to show off my skills but i have a win/loose quote of about 5-10, sometimes even greater.( those who dont believe it, i take screenshots of nearly every end of the games,mostly of looses to remember them… I can send you my screenshots.) which means i win 5-10 games before losing 1. - to mention: it’s mostly vs random oponents but there are some in here i also played again and again against and i also won vs them most of the times.

and I played A LOT of games. Vs nearly every setup, although there are rather few ppl with Ivan or something BIIQ.
The last few games over and over vs. melee-users—> 2x Pete with Katana + commander with cold automatic— no problem. kill the commander, run away from hidden petes and kite them to death.

dave with lumber numberer, commander with cold automatic and tim taschman with knirly knife ( no idea how people come to the idea giving him the knirly knife or other mid/weights–> even pete is better with ranged weapons -------------> no problem. ppl rush ahead with dave bcs they think they can chop trees-> concussion grenade to slow him down, killed the commander, dave and then taschman leaving the turret without attention.

what i want to point out-> melee weapons are no problem. you just have to think ahead.
when i lose - it is ONLY because i made an (after the match) RLY obvious mistake.
some examples : throwing my daves grenade just for dmg- not for the kill
trying to chase leightweight with midweight while the whole enemy team is alive
leaving multiple characters behind cover without thinking about the deadly AOE of enemys grenade
staying behind cover where i can easily pushed out ( although this is MY OWN favourit strategy)
chasing the enemy when it is obviously::
Ghosted LaHacque from behind with lumber numberer although i saw her going into cloak…

The Game is not about being good. The Game is NOT about reflexes. The Game is NOT about iAP. The Game is not about how long you have played. The Game is not about the perfect setup

All this Game is about: being tactical, strategical, thinking one turn ahead, testing your turn out (you HAVE the Rewind- USE IT )- it is not called “asynchronous multiplayer strategy game” for fun.

it is more or less like chess- all about strategy.

In my opinion the melee-weapons do not need a rework. They are powerful- but the hell, it is Melee, they should be just that- powerful… they are powerful in every game, or do at least much more dmg then ranged-classes. no matter if strategy or ego-shooter,mmorpg or anything else. Cs-DoD-Worms-Mw2/mw3-Dota-RO-Soldat-WoW …
(I played all of the called games - and trust me - there are ALWAYS flamers and haters. at the end everyone tried it out for himself and thought the same- it is not as good as i believed it was.)

Instead there should be a 6squad-pointed ranged weapon for commander and 5+6squad-pointed RANGED weapons for medics.

This is my opinion. I hope you get my point. Sry to pose around but i think it is necessary to show that the weapons or setup dont make a huge difference- although there ARE good and bad setups.
Sorry for everyone i might have offended, it was not my intention

If you want to convince me of anything else- challenge me (add me as a friend before- tinker).
only 14squad-pointed games. the bigger matches do not give concrete results- they only end in a possible scene for Crank3

with friendly regards
tinker

[Catnadian]

You bring up a few interesting points in your posts (notably Ivan’s grenade which sounds like it would basically win a 14 pointer on its own merits) though I feel like youre focused a little too heavily on 14 point games while ignoring 20 and 26 point games. By the nature of 14pt games, if you bring along a melee unit you’re more or less centering the strategy around that unit. Take how you feel about two melee units in a 14pt and you’ll see where the rest of us are coming from.

It’s certainly possible to win against melee-centric opponents (I recently won a game against someone who used straight Kate, axe LaHacque and knife Dave, though it was a little closer than I would have liked) but the focus is shifted entirely on them: if these units are not removed from play in the next two or three turns, you have effectively lost, and there is really no quick-thinking clever solution to counter it. This sort of thing doesn’t happen in games where melee is not the focus or is absent entirely. I’d also like to echo EL-CO’s point that by the very nature of the game (and some of the maps), melee is given a frankly disproportionate advantage. If you’re not in range to deliver three attacks with your axe by one square (~225 damage), you can just artillery bump them up a square to maximize their damage output. If you take 225 damage for 6AP and try and try and stack it against any ranged weapon, the only one that comes anywhere close to matching is if someone is two squares away from a Hamjak Carlito and their back is to a wall (netting you short of 270 for 15AP), something so rare I think the Mayans predicted it would happen sometime next month.

Suddenly everything else that scoots soldiers around seems like a vehicle for making melee weapons more effective. It’s not undefeatable, but countering it can be a chore and it flattens the tactical scale. Strategies exist within it, at the cost of every other strategy that doesnt involve the optimal solution: a bat to the face.

As they are right now, melee weapons are good for keeping matches quick and giving a player something urgent to direct their counter strategy to, but I feel like its still a bit rough around the edges and a little attention to it wouldn’t hurt things in the long run, something I feel it should get with the introduction of a weapon that does ~80dmg/2AP with no knockback.

Ivan’s conc grenade will probably get its own thread one day, it hasnt really got the exposure melee weapons have because of Ivan’s high cost. Not sure if I covered everything I wanted to so I’ll come back to this post later.

[EL-CO]

tinker, none of us said that we loose vs melee over and over again. I fought with Catnadain and Crozzton several times and both are pretty good. I’m sure they won 80~90% of matches, just like you. We are not discussing how to beat melee squads, but talking that melee weapons might be too strong if both players are equally skilled.
I think I won more than 90% of the games and beaten melee squads in many matches (even Dave with Ax), I still have some feelings that melee weapons are overpowered. I can beat the opponent much easier with melee weapons than ranged weapons. Even more easier with Madame LaHacque.
I’m not saying that melee weapons are too powerful and unbeatable, but suggesting that debuffing melee weapons may bring the game more balanced and strategically rich. Currently, melee weapons have lots of advantage over ranged weapons: 2EP cost to attack, higher damaqe, ignores partial cover, suitable to keep central area and could be very easy choice in the game.

[Crozzton]

As EL-CO says melee heavy grps aren’t impossible to beat but you need to be on your toes (more than normal) since an error will be punished harder against an axe. Switched to more lightweights in my grp and going for healing. Currently trying 2 kates (clocker)1 madam (knife) 2 angelas (clocker) and commander. Sometimes one Angela is switched for a Dave or turret unit for gadgets. ( going for a Megan to this)
It often gives me one more unit and the gas grenade combined with mobility and clever use of healbox/team spirit/scan I can out wear madams cloak and even weaken her (gas grenade) while doing it.
It shows to be most efficient against the melee grps than the mixed squads when played by equally skilled players.

I would nerf melee 10-15% and make cover more efficient when attacked by melee.

See u on the battlefield lads

Sorry for messy writing. Hate writing from a phone

[tinker]

Hey guys.

first.
I fought all 3 of you main-posters of this thread. I even have/had you on my friend lists so i somehow know how you play.

It offends me if you say, my strategy, when using a melee - is centered around him. It is not.
It may be centered around the character but not around the weapon. So if i use kate, i will nearly always use her with knarly knife - bcs there are only 3 other weapons (low cost) for her and they are all mid-range with mid-dmg what i do not like. But i play her because i like the heal, the grenade and the movability. not because she has a knarly knife

I use a dave with a knarly knife bcs I need the movability vs ppl with lumber numberer or anything like that and , sry I mean AND because his grenade has a pushback. My builds are mostly centered about fast and precise dmg output. No matter if melee or range. but it IS mostly range And thats how i won many games against you.

[Crozzton]

Tinker: no one is blaming anyone for cheesy strategy for using any of the mentioned items if they are in the game and appeals to ones game play, it should be used.
The game is still at a test phase imo so ppls opinions count in these matters.
It’s pure math that you get better outcome from melee weapons per energy than you do with ranged weapons. On light weight units covering more ground per energy you get better foundation for high output damage especially on smaller scale maps that gives cover to advance through.

I have played a lot of 3xmadam (axe katana chainsaw) 1 Kate clocker. It gave me a win in turn 4-6 against most lower lvl a without really using the inside of my head. Higher lvls had revalations and tends to actually NOT run straightforward into my concealed weapons of death and gave me to turn 10 before they croaked. Then I started to meet high end players ( which I usually consider forum users combined with high lvl)
Then I had to use my brain and found myself trying NOT to run into strange traps laid to lure out my madams. These games have been more fun than the rolling over the opponent ones. So I started different tactics in order to find a more fun way ( an to me less simpleminded) to combined a squa that appeals to my likings. That in itself is fun
I do miss the 3 drones tho. They tend to give a round or two where all firepower is put on them. Or just seeing the opposite squad scatter like rabbits when they swarm in. Btw pretty odd that they get healed by healboxes

[Catnadian]

The very presence of a melee weapon usually decides a competent game, and more often than not the answer to a melee weapon can only ever be another melee weapon - that’s not well balanced, and that’s what we’re concerned about.

The game I mentioned earlier is a perfect example of what we are not really feeling about melee weapons. I managed to whittle down my opponent using artillery to bounce the melee troops into the line of sight of my sniper repeatedly. I didn’t win because they didn’t know how to use melee weapons, or because I had a sniper, but because the only way for them to attack my Pete was to either surrender the point to me and try and dig me out of it (which wouldn’t have worked), or go through Kate - armed with a katana. after they lost LaHacque this wasn’t going to happen because I could easily out damage them without fear of retribution. If Kate didn’t have that katana they would have chewed through me in three turns from that point, even with a Hamjak Megan on my side. Her maximum damage output to AP cost would have been nowhere near enough to kill them off, even with the rest of my squad, unless their placement was atrocious.

Kept that as simple as I could but I would like to stress this isn’t a series of personal attacks against those who choose to utilize melee - of that I think we are all guilty anyways.

[EL-CO]

And thats how i won many games against you.

How many times you won against us has nothing to do with this discussion. We are just discussing to make the game better.
And, if I remember correctly and if you don’t use any other username, I played with you 3 times. You won in the first game (with 4 units in 12 squads points, which was banned by the update), you stopped playing in the middle of the 2nd game, and I won in the 3rd game last week.
Again, I’m talking about melee weapons to make the game better, and I think debuffing melee weapons will make the game more balanced to many players with various skill level.

[tinker]

seems like you do not remember correctly el-co … but this is not the matter - thats why i wrote it in this size

the melee weapons seem to be the problem- but they aren’t . as i said in my previous post it seems to me that I HAVE to argue on a more personal level because you do not see the main problem - that actually is the problem your making HERE

if you cut down melee weapons you will start seeing games with no melee at all.
The problem is that you forget -> WE are quite old in the game, THEY are not. melee weapons “are” stronq, because new players cannot handle them. It is the same problem we have here, that we had with 4 squad-members on 12points. newer players cannot handle them.

So what do we do: making a problem of where usually no problem is, fixing it where no fix is needed and when time comes listening to ppl who want to rewind this?

I don’t care. I usually do, that’s why i always write such a long comment… but it is useless if people go into war with blind ideas and are not open-minded.

the problem is not, that melees are stronq, it is (if there is any problem) that some classes are underpowered. like carlito grosso or tim taschman. what is with specialist suds? have you yet heard of someone using him?

IF THERE IS ANY problem -> you just said it. When it comes to games vs good players //what is good–> concentrating on their level etc.// the game gets tough.
–> so what? cut down melee-power? OR should we MAYBE ask the admins and game developer to make somehow a filter or matchmaking system?

I do not talk about everything above 14squadpoints because it is chaos there anyways

t

[Catnadian]

[QUOTE=tinker;410253]if you cut down melee weapons you will start seeing games with no melee at all.
The problem is that you forget -> WE are quite old in the game, THEY are not. melee weapons “are” stronq, because new players cannot handle them. It is the same problem we have here, that we had with 4 squad-members on 12points. newer players cannot handle them.[/QUOTE]

Except this isn’t the voice of new players here: everyone who has posted in this thread is pretty well versed in the game. We’re speaking from experience. 4 troop squads in 12pt games was never about new players being unable to cope, it was becuase the strategy was downright inaccessible to new players and nigh undefeatable to anyone who didn’t also bring a 4 troop squad: ability damage factored in, most 3 troop squad setups would simply be unable to fight back. Sounds familiar…

the problem is not, that melees are stronq, it is (if there is any problem) that some classes are underpowered. like carlito grosso or tim taschman. what is with specialist suds? have you yet heard of someone using him?

IF THERE IS ANY problem -> you just said it. When it comes to games vs good players //what is good–> concentrating on their level etc.// the game gets tough.
–> so what? cut down melee-power? OR should we MAYBE ask the admins and game developer to make somehow a filter or matchmaking system?

Firstly, people use Suds all the time. I see him plenty in 26 point matches, his C4 is a little less effective than Megan’s mines but is still some serious area denial. Secondly, I’m a little disappointed you’re so quick to write off anything higher than 14pt matches. I’ve seen a number of impressive comebacks and strategies in the higher point matches, and losing a soldier isn’t a death sentence. They’ve been most of the fun I’ve had with the game.

Lastly, what you’re suggesting is not fixing the problem - it is mitigating it. Seperate matchmaking options hide any issues with melee weapons as they exist, and promote fragmentation of players, and won’t solve any issues.

[EL-CO]

First, I will use melee weapons even after 10-20% cut down. Katana with 40 pts damage and Ax with 60 pts damage are still strong and useful enough for me.
Second, dealing with melee units are much more difficult than using melee weapons by yourself. It might be hard to handle melee weapons, but fighting against melee squads with ranged weapons are much harder. That makes things more complicated.
Third, I agree that there are some imbalance in units and abilities, and can be discussed in another thread. However, we can still talk about the balance between melee and ranged weapons which is different aspect of the game. Of course, as Catnadain wrote in the first post, some combination of unit and weapon can be very problematic and should be discussed (Madame LaHacque with Ax).
Fourth, I usually play 14 pts match but it’s just because there are more people playing in that class. I personally prefer 20 pts match as it will give you more freedom in strategic sense. In 14 pts match, most of you will agree with that you should use artillery, but there are lots more options in 20 pts match. It is very dangerous to fight without any Medic considering poison grenade, which will give you rather small number of combinations in 14 pts match. If you have never seen Sud before, that’ll be because you only played 14 pts matches. 14 pts matches are fun, but 20 pts matches are also interesting. 26 pts matches are bit too crowdy for me, though. Sticking only to 14 pts match is not very open-minded, I think.

[TokenWhiteGuy]

Hey Catnadian Good job taking down my Kate/lehaque melee beast team. I agree melee weapons are way overpowered but I wanted to do well and not have to fork up any cash so melee, lightweight and better abilities seemed the way to go. I just got enough coins built up to get Ivan so ill start testing how well that grenade of his is.

[Catnadian]

Ivan’s grenade seems like the ultimate cluster punisher, but only has a two square radius. I know it reduces the AP of units hit but I don’t know by how much, however ‘disables deployables’ seems a little suspect - tell us if it’s an instakill as opposed to a stun.

As for a damage tweak, I think a bump from 2AP to 3AP might level them out a little. The math still comes up with basically generous but entirely reasonable outputs with current damages, but it might be a bit much.

[Crozzton]

Ivans bomb halves the energy of the affected for 2 turns and disables turrets for the same amount of time. Seen him quite a few time but must admit he sounds more dangerous than he is. By the time the slowpoke bear gets close enough to use the grenade I have finished off most of his troops. I tend to finish off the slow units last as I see them as less a threat than other units. Switch Spud and Ivan’s abilities round perhaps?

[tinker]

…
There was a reason why i did not say too much about his grenade. It’s called spoilering and it takes any surprise when ppl buy him.

whoever lets his troops die while having an Ivan has a bad gameplay. I used him about 10 times now and i am happy with him although i had to adapt my playstyle a lot. Somehow i was quite lucky with my enemys and nearly always got him vs Turret.

just for people who have him / want to get him.
He is slow, YES but not tooo slow. he is only 1 cell/turn slower then midweight ( 18:3=6 ; 14:2 = 7)
try to use his support fire / shooting back with the commanders backflash aura. his 300hp makes it often an even attack since you hit back with nearly 90%. he is best with a walker//leighweight// with hit+run strategy. A healer is also recommanded ( 1+1=lightweight healer)
lure the enemy out, slow him down and chase.
if you have him, it takes long to play him perfectly with a good setup but he is quite good once you mastered him. dmg output is great, no matter what weapon( even with cold automatic … 18:3=6 , 6x15to25 = 90to150) and 300 life is massive.

SOO, there must have been a little change in the dmg calculation of bigger melees or at least pushback melees through walls.( or at least seville sluggar //lol//
The seville sluggar makes less dmg when enemy is behind cover
I cannot speak about other weapons. only that Knife’s dmg is not reduced

with friendly regards
me