@ClemClem7 said:
I can see where you go, and I agree with you on the point that I don’t like to spawncamp people. I avoid it as much as possible, but sometimes you push so hard as a defender that it’s all you can do because the enemy team is not in the same skill level than yours. You can’t just let them win.The way to avoid it is to have balanced games, but the balance is very fragile in a 6v6 game. When you see 32v32 battlefield games turn into a spawncamping, you know that no game can avoid these things.
Even in planetside 2 (which is a lot bigger than 32v32), spawncamp is a thing (or was a thing, didn’t launch the game for about 1 year or so)The smaller the team, the harder it is to balance it. Imo, spawncamping is unavoidable, and this game has not the worst spawncamp I can think of.
Spawncamping is perfectly avoidable, but it depends on the players and their attitude - and there’s where hope for decency goes to die, every time. It just takes the group that pushed that far to dial it back a notch and keep their defense point a little back from directly the other team’s spawn, but that would take people thinking about mutual fun and disputed matches, not in “GG EZ LULZ.”
Some suggestions to make DB great again!
@BloodySin i think you see spawnkilling differently than me:
- I see spawnkilling as an ambush tactic to cut off reinforcements and longspawn a few enemies. Why allow opponents the opportunity to get into position, when you can hold them off at a choke. An easy example of this is Bridge last obj: attackers can push left lane and prevent enemies coming out of spawn from coming into the building. As such, this tactic is often essential to taking over an objective.
- Alternatively spawnkilling could simply be a massively imbalanced 4v8 type of game, where one team is so much better/bigger that they can lock the entire enemy team in spawn. Yeah that sucks, but its a problem with BALANCE and not the mechanic of spawnkilling. How would it be any better if those same spawning players would just die 5sec later at another choke?
@BloodySin said:
@ClemClem7 said:
I can see where you go, and I agree with you on the point that I don’t like to spawncamp people. I avoid it as much as possible, but sometimes you push so hard as a defender that it’s all you can do because the enemy team is not in the same skill level than yours. You can’t just let them win.The way to avoid it is to have balanced games, but the balance is very fragile in a 6v6 game. When you see 32v32 battlefield games turn into a spawncamping, you know that no game can avoid these things.
Even in planetside 2 (which is a lot bigger than 32v32), spawncamp is a thing (or was a thing, didn’t launch the game for about 1 year or so)The smaller the team, the harder it is to balance it. Imo, spawncamping is unavoidable, and this game has not the worst spawncamp I can think of.
Spawncamping is perfectly avoidable, but it depends on the players and their attitude - and there’s where hope for decency goes to die, every time. It just takes the group that pushed that far to dial it back a notch and keep their defense point a little back from directly the other team’s spawn, but that would take people thinking about mutual fun and disputed matches, not in “GG EZ LULZ.”
There are 2 problems in your point:
- Human behaviour, at least one player won’t go back, then others will say “If he’s not coming back, me neither” and at the end you were hopping for decency, but all you can find is you, at the back line, and no kill/score, and your team at the same point than before, and nothing change because somehow the enemy team is not good enough to win a 6v5 or some people left/are AFK.
- If you don’t spawncamp them at the first choke point they encounter, you’ll camp the next one and they will not go further. It’s the magic of the competition, even if you want to let them play, you will focus on winning. And if you can spawncamp them at one point, you’ll camp them at every point.
@Szakalot
Both cases are a cheap dick move to me. There’s no map in the game that requires spawncamping - that would mean the objective being exactly their spawn point, which never happens.
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As I said, expecting decency, instead of competitiveness and cattle mentality. I’ll hang back by myself and wait for the match to end if I see my team doing that. As I often find myself being the only medic, not getting healed has worked as encouragement to hang back for others as well. If it doesn’t, I still won’t take part in it anyways.
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What do chokepoints have to do with spawncamping? I’m not sure you know what spawncamping is anymore. Holding a chokepoint - when past the spawn the game gives many different paths people can take to avoid being “choked” - is a whole different thing.
@BloodySin well then, thats your prerogative. You are free to play your version of the game, believing that, for whatever reason, some
parts of the map are ‘off limits’ because of a dubious honor system.
I will play my version, where ambushing opponents is a valid strategy, and where I will keep my eyes open the entire route to obj, without assumptions as to what the enemy is not ought to do.
@Szakalot
As I said to Clem, expecting players to not be dicks is where hope for decency goes to die. I understand that won’t stop people from trying to rationalize being dicks, don’t worry. “GG EZ LULZ.”
@BloodySin said:
@ClemClem7
- What do chokepoints have to do with spawncamping? I’m not sure you know what spawncamping is anymore. Holding a chokepoint - when past the spawn the game gives many different paths people can take to avoid being “choked” - is a whole different thing.
The way people complain about spawncamping is when a team don’t let people go out of their spawn by holding a choke point at the exit of the spawn (the fallen wall on chapel last objective) so they “can’t” exit the “spawn” (aka can’t go to the objective being delivered)
This has all to do with choke points as you can barely kill people just freshly spawned because of the shield. So you hide just at the first choke point (the fallen wall in my example) so they can’t see you before their shield end. Spawncamping as people call it in this game has all to do with chokepoints. People only complain because they can’t reach the EV at the beginning of chapel and call that spawncamping.
And on this I will agree with @Szakalot, this is what is part of the game, even if it’s not really fun for the enemy.
If you mean the real “spawncamping” where you just die as soon as you spawn or can’t walk 2 meters, then it’s not part of this game due to the spawnshield. As I said before, I encountered only 2 real spawncamp (can’t even exit the spawn zone) in my playtime and one of them was an 1v6.
If a player gets really spawncamped that much time that they must complain on the forums, I think he’s part of the worst team I ever think of.
@ClemClem7 said:
The way people complain about spawncamping is when a team don’t let people go out of their spawn by holding a choke point at the exit of the spawn (the fallen wall on chapel last objective) so they “can’t” exit the “spawn” (aka can’t go to the objective being delivered)This has all to do with choke points as you can barely kill people just freshly spawned because of the shield. So you hide just at the first choke point (the fallen wall in my example) so they can’t see you before their shield end. Spawncamping as people call it in this game has all to do with chokepoints. People only complain because they can’t reach the EV at the beginning of chapel and call that spawncamping.
And on this I will agree with @Szakalot, this is what is part of the game, even if it’s not really fun for the enemy.If you mean the real “spawncamping” where you just die as soon as you spawn or can’t walk 2 meters, then it’s not part of this game due to the spawnshield. As I said before, I encountered only 2 real spawncamp (can’t even exit the spawn zone) in my playtime and one of them was an 1v6.
If a player gets really spawncamped that much time that they must complain on the forums, I think he’s part of the worst team I ever think of.
Camping the sole path, which is directly the spawn point of the attacking team, like the beginning of Chapel, is spawncamping, yes. It doesn’t matters if you’re right on top of the spawn or if you’re blocking the sole way right out of the spawn. A single strong push on a long respawn can allow that, it doesn’t necessarily means a bad team, and any team that can spam explosions - which is most nowadays - then is able to keep them held back there without much effort. How often it happens to you or I is irrelevant as the game doesn’t centers around our experiences. As others have said, it’s bad map design to even allow that sort of trapping to happen. As I’ve said, to me it’s plain cheap dickery to use that - not even going into considering abusing it “essential.” Either you don’t need it to win, so there’s no reason for doing it, or you need it to win, and can’t handle an actual struggle to beat the other team.
@BloodySin said:
Camping the sole path, which is directly the spawn point of the attacking team, like the beginning of Chapel, is spawncamping, yes. It doesn’t matters if you’re right on top of the spawn or if you’re blocking the sole way right out of the spawn. A single strong push on a long respawn can allow that, it doesn’t necessarily means a bad team, and any team that can spam explosions - which is most nowadays - then is able to keep them held back there without much effort. How often it happens to you or I is irrelevant as the game doesn’t centers around our experiences. As others have said, it’s bad map design to even allow that sort of trapping to happen. As I’ve said, to me it’s plain cheap dickery to use that - not even going into considering abusing it “essential.” Either you don’t need it to win, so there’s no reason for doing it, or you need it to win, and can’t handle an actual struggle to beat the other team.
Maps are done that there is rarely only one path (chapel last defense spawn is one of them, and maybe new dome first attack spawn, didn’t tried it now). You very often have more than one path to exit the spawn. Chapel first is the best example of it, despite what you said. Right at the front of the spawn you have 2 paths.
After that, yeah you only have one EV to repair, so if you block them from repairing it (doing what you must doing) they can’t win, yeah.
If you’re blocking the ways out from their spawn, you’re doing your job, you know, killing other players. They can defend (as they don’t die in the 3 seconds after they spawn), they’re not good enough to do it, that’s all.
And then we go again with balance. In these cases, if I can change team, I do it. But if the team are even (in numbers), I will not drop my guns just because the enemy team is slightly worse than mine.
The fact that they die 15 meter away from their spawn or 50 meters away from it doesn’t mater. They just can’t handle the opposite team. Then one will win, the other doesn’t.
If they can’t go to the objective, they will loose, no need to give them a hope by letting them go to the objective and then rekt them again. It just delays the problem.
@ClemClem7 said:
Maps are done that there is rarely only one path (chapel last defense spawn is one of them, and maybe new dome first attack spawn, didn’t tried it now). You very often have more than one path to exit the spawn. Chapel first is the best example of it, despite what you said. Right at the front of the spawn you have 2 paths.
After that, yeah you only have one EV to repair, so if you block them from repairing it (doing what you must doing) they can’t win, yeah.If you’re blocking the ways out from their spawn, you’re doing your job, you know, killing other players. They can defend (as they don’t die in the 3 seconds after they spawn), they’re not good enough to do it, that’s all.
And then we go again with balance. In these cases, if I can change team, I do it. But if the team are even (in numbers), I will not drop my guns just because the enemy team is slightly worse than mine.
The fact that they die 15 meter away from their spawn or 50 meters away from it doesn’t mater. They just can’t handle the opposite team. Then one will win, the other doesn’t.If they can’t go to the objective, they will loose, no need to give them a hope by letting them go to the objective and then rekt them again. It just delays the problem.
Again, if you don’t need it to win, don’t do it to not be a dick. It’s not fun for the team being camped, it’s just “lulz” for the ones camping. Even a lost game can be fun if there’s competitiveness. And if doing it is “essential” for you to win, you’re simply a weak player, and the match being overall fun isn’t going to be among your considerations anyways.
@BloodySin said:
@ClemClem7 said:
Maps are done that there is rarely only one path (chapel last defense spawn is one of them, and maybe new dome first attack spawn, didn’t tried it now). You very often have more than one path to exit the spawn. Chapel first is the best example of it, despite what you said. Right at the front of the spawn you have 2 paths.
After that, yeah you only have one EV to repair, so if you block them from repairing it (doing what you must doing) they can’t win, yeah.If you’re blocking the ways out from their spawn, you’re doing your job, you know, killing other players. They can defend (as they don’t die in the 3 seconds after they spawn), they’re not good enough to do it, that’s all.
And then we go again with balance. In these cases, if I can change team, I do it. But if the team are even (in numbers), I will not drop my guns just because the enemy team is slightly worse than mine.
The fact that they die 15 meter away from their spawn or 50 meters away from it doesn’t mater. They just can’t handle the opposite team. Then one will win, the other doesn’t.If they can’t go to the objective, they will loose, no need to give them a hope by letting them go to the objective and then rekt them again. It just delays the problem.
Again, if you don’t need it to win, don’t do it to not be a dick. It’s not fun for the team being camped, it’s just “lulz” for the ones camping. Even a lost game can be fun if there’s competitiveness. And if doing it is “essential” for you to win, you’re simply a weak player, and the match being overall fun isn’t going to be among your considerations anyways.
Where is the limit between spawncamping and normal play. I must let them do the objective but not too much ? I need to loose some fights just so they can kill someone before dying ?
At which distance from their spawn is it allowed to kill them.
Again, if it’s not right at the exit of the spawn that they die, but at the next chokepoint, what’s the deal ? If you win your fights, you’ll kill them, that’s all.
I need to let medic alive so they can revive people after I kill them ? Then it’s called farm, and they die more, and it’s more unfair then.
@emjot said:
Spawnkilling is a symptom, it’s not the cause.
The problem doesn’t lie with spawnkilling itself it lies with balance. Trying to fix the spawnkilling issue won’t help losing team win. If one of the team led to the situation they are kept getting spawnkill that means teams are not balanced. To fix this issue we need to balance teams. Not the other way around.
And maps have not too many paths because it’s a 5v5 game (max 8v8) and people complain when maps are bigger (I’m looking at you, old dome) because teams spread too much. Then SD remove some useless paths and now there are not enough paths…
Imo, all maps have enough (2 is enough) paths.
And when it have less path, it’s because the way to the objective is shorter than the enemy way (chapel last, where defender spawn 7s away from the delivery point and attacker spawn at the other end of the field). Here spawncamping is essential to control the enemy team. If they exit the only path, they’re already on the delivery point, you have no other options than spawncamping.
But then again, it’s not really spawncamping as the defender have the possibility to fight back. They can push. And if they can’t because the attackers are better, then they loose, it’s the fucking game. A winner (often the best one) and a looser (the worst of the two teams).
It’s not “If you need spawncamping to win you don’t deserve the win”
It’s more “If you’re good enough to kill all the waves of enemy players before they can reach the objective, maybe you deserve the win”
No matter where you kill them, if they fight back it’s a fair fight. And here they can fight back because of the spawnshield which let them prepare for the exiting push.
@ClemClem7 said:
Where is the limit between spawncamping and normal play. I must let them do the objective but not too much ? I need to loose some fights just so they can kill someone before dying ?
At which distance from their spawn is it allowed to kill them.
Again, if it’s not right at the exit of the spawn that they die, but at the next chokepoint, what’s the deal ? If you win your fights, you’ll kill them, that’s all.
I need to let medic alive so they can revive people after I kill them ? Then it’s called farm, and they die more, and it’s more unfair then.
If you sincerely need to ask that and to have precise measurements, instead of a “feel” and empathy to tell when a match is being one-sided because one team isn’t even able to leave their spawn area, there’s nothing I can say to fix it.
@BloodySin said:
If you sincerely need to ask that and to have precise measurements, instead of a “feel” and empathy to tell when a match is being one-sided because one team isn’t even able to leave their spawn area, there’s nothing I can say to fix it.
I don’t like rolling over the other team or whatever you call it, and as I’m far from godlike, I am even sometimes in the loosing team. And I’m not mad against the other team when I get rekt, only against me and my team because we are just not good.
But when I am on the winning team and can’t balance the game more (team are even, shuffle doesn’t pass or already passed), I don’t see the point of let them run until 2m from the objective only to rekt them anyway before they can reach it.
And I will not let them win just because it’s unfair, it’s called pity, and it’s not even better for them.
Again,
Spawnkilling is a symptom, it’s not the cause.
I’d quote my previous post as a reply, but that could be considered spamming, so here’s the intention.
@BloodySin said:
@ClemClem7 said:
Where is the limit between spawncamping and normal play. I must let them do the objective but not too much ? I need to loose some fights just so they can kill someone before dying ?
At which distance from their spawn is it allowed to kill them.
Again, if it’s not right at the exit of the spawn that they die, but at the next chokepoint, what’s the deal ? If you win your fights, you’ll kill them, that’s all.
I need to let medic alive so they can revive people after I kill them ? Then it’s called farm, and they die more, and it’s more unfair then.
If you sincerely need to ask that and to have precise measurements, instead of a “feel” and empathy to tell when a match is being one-sided because one team isn’t even able to leave their spawn area, there’s nothing I can say to fix it.
so is it about stomping the other team or is it about ambushes being rude?
@Szakalot said:
so is it about stomping the other team or is it about ambushes being rude?
It’s about things only people who don’t consider it “essential” to spawncamp to win have any chance of comprehending. Those other ones have to stick to being cheap dicks and calling it part of the game to rationalize it.
@Szakalot said:
@BloodySin well then, thats your prerogative. You are free to play your version of the game, believing that, for whatever reason, some
parts of the map are ‘off limits’ because of a dubious honor system.I will play my version, where ambushing opponents is a valid strategy, and where I will keep my eyes open the entire route to obj, without assumptions as to what the enemy is not ought to do.
The thing is, While respecting your play styles, That play style causes people to leave the matches in the middle and it’s a down hill from there
@ClemClem7 said:
@BloodySin said:
@ClemClem7
- What do chokepoints have to do with spawncamping? I’m not sure you know what spawncamping is anymore. Holding a chokepoint - when past the spawn the game gives many different paths people can take to avoid being “choked” - is a whole different thing.
The way people complain about spawncamping is when a team don’t let people go out of their spawn by holding a choke point at the exit of the spawn (the fallen wall on chapel last objective) so they “can’t” exit the “spawn” (aka can’t go to the objective being delivered)
This has all to do with choke points as you can barely kill people just freshly spawned because of the shield. So you hide just at the first choke point (the fallen wall in my example) so they can’t see you before their shield end. Spawncamping as people call it in this game has all to do with chokepoints. People only complain because they can’t reach the EV at the beginning of chapel and call that spawncamping.
And on this I will agree with @Szakalot, this is what is part of the game, even if it’s not really fun for the enemy.If you mean the real “spawncamping” where you just die as soon as you spawn or can’t walk 2 meters, then it’s not part of this game due to the spawnshield. As I said before, I encountered only 2 real spawncamp (can’t even exit the spawn zone) in my playtime and one of them was an 1v6.
If a player gets really spawncamped that much time that they must complain on the forums, I think he’s part of the worst team I ever think of.
I’ve encountered as a victim and the oppressor in the situation where the defending team holds the EV for about one min(wiping out a whole team) and march all the way into the actual spawn. Yea the shields give defender the higher end but having 2 sawbones and a phenix in the defnders gives you different story
@BloodySin said:
@ClemClem7 said:
Maps are done that there is rarely only one path (chapel last defense spawn is one of them, and maybe new dome first attack spawn, didn’t tried it now). You very often have more than one path to exit the spawn. Chapel first is the best example of it, despite what you said. Right at the front of the spawn you have 2 paths.
After that, yeah you only have one EV to repair, so if you block them from repairing it (doing what you must doing) they can’t win, yeah.If you’re blocking the ways out from their spawn, you’re doing your job, you know, killing other players. They can defend (as they don’t die in the 3 seconds after they spawn), they’re not good enough to do it, that’s all.
And then we go again with balance. In these cases, if I can change team, I do it. But if the team are even (in numbers), I will not drop my guns just because the enemy team is slightly worse than mine.
The fact that they die 15 meter away from their spawn or 50 meters away from it doesn’t mater. They just can’t handle the opposite team. Then one will win, the other doesn’t.If they can’t go to the objective, they will loose, no need to give them a hope by letting them go to the objective and then rekt them again. It just delays the problem.
Again, if you don’t need it to win, don’t do it to not be a dick. It’s not fun for the team being camped, it’s just “lulz” for the ones camping. Even a lost game can be fun if there’s competitiveness. And if doing it is “essential” for you to win, you’re simply a weak player, and the match being overall fun isn’t going to be among your considerations anyways.
I agree, I’ve had numerous matches where one team didnt even completed a single obj and yet the both temas scores were well over 20K by the end of the games. If the spawnkilling happens it becomes to about 13~15K to 7~8K top